D&D General Are NPCs like PCs?

[Cadence]

Actually, there are differences, the PCs can progress in level, whereas the NPCs can't. PCs have always been special, exactly like heroes in the genre. It does not preclude some NPCs to do that as well, but is your world with so little variety that everyone has to be equal and that there are only a very few well defined paths to power ?

Exactly. So would you preclude a PC from taking up merchanting (with no advancement in HP and combat skills) instead of continuing as a fighter, for example?

 

[Lyxen]

Built with unique abilities. Not built in such a way that the DM cannot allow a PC who is interested in learning the ability to find a way to learn it. So yes, I am playing 5e

So it's actually the other way around, you would customise the game to allow a PC to gain any ability from a NPC (actually meaning any monster) ? For example attacks which are always poisoned as for the assassin ? Shadow step absolutely at will ? War magic (When the githyanki uses its action to cast a spell, it can make one weapon attack as a bonus action) at will ? And many more example of powers which are incredibly powerful in the hands of PCs because they are at will, making them way more powerful than standard class powers ?

Have you ever done so ?

Nothing nonsense about it. So what if an NPC has a unique learned ability.

And what if it's not learned ? The Death Knight did not learn his abilities, but neither are they racial.

The DM can by 5e rules(the rules serve the DM and not the ther way around), allow a PC to learn it.

Yes, it's all very nice theoretically, but in practice, have you done so ?

Er, it's literally the opposite of a constraint. I'm giving the PCs something extra that makes the game more sensible.

You think it's sensible to give NPC more or less at will powers to PCs ? What does it do to the game ?

 

[Lyxen]

Exactly. So would you preclude a PC from taking up merchanting (with no advancement in HP and combat skills) instead of continuing as a fighter, for example?

Actually, the PC can wait for an ASI, take a feat if the option is available, and get the proper skills, then wait for a few more levels and increase his charisma, or add some rogue level to get expertise, etc. But it's not really the same thing, and it's the reverse of what I'm asking, how do I create a simple (but reasonably good) merchant with not a single combat skill or proficiency while using a PC template ?

 

[Cadence]

So it's actually the other way around, you would customise the game to allow a PC to gain any ability from a NPC (actually meaning any monster) ? For example attacks which are always poisoned as for the assassin ? Shadow step absolutely at will ? War magic (When the githyanki uses its action to cast a spell, it can make one weapon attack as a bonus action) at will ? And many more example of powers which are incredibly powerful in the hands of PCs because they are at will, making them way more powerful than standard class powers ?

Has @Maxperson or anyone on here said that PCs should be able to train in innate abilities of other species? Or have they focused on when humanoid things trained to learn combat maneuvers, or when a "mage" or "wizard" cast a spell, or when a humanoid merchant was pricing up goods?

Did anything in the post above I @'ed you in about conflating the different questions in this thread make/not-make sense? Or was it just unhelpful?

 

[Cadence]

Actually, the PC can wait for an ASI, take a feat if the option is available, and get the proper skills, then wait for a few more levels and increase his charisma, or add some rogue level to get expertise, etc. But it's not really the same thing, and it's the reverse of what I'm asking, how do I create a simple (but reasonably good) merchant with not a single combat skill or proficiency while using a PC template ?

I don't know. I asked in #305 if anyone in this thread had claimed it should be a thing. (One of my most hated things in 3/3.5/PF was that commoners/experts got more hitpoints as the leveled).

 

[Lyxen]

I agree. The question isn't whether the PC WILL want to learn the ability and do what it takes.

Just posing impossible conditions is exactly like forbidding it with extra steps...

The question is whether or not the PC is capable of learning an ability that there is no in-fiction reason to be unable to learn.

And the problem is that you are assuming that there is no "in-fiction reason to be unable to learn". For example, "Aura of Murder. As long as the death’s head is not incapacitated, hostile creatures within 5 feet of it gain vulnerability to piercing damage unless they have resistance or immunity to such damage." You have to be a fanatic of Bhaal, and therefore evil, in a campaign that does not allow evil PCs. Moreover, it's not learned, it a gift from the god.

I don't understand what this has to do with my argument.

Simply that if you have to take a PC path to progression (since they seem to be the only ones available), how do you designe a reasonnably good merchant with expertise in bargaining but no fighting skills at all ?

By 5e RAW some NPCs can. Not all NPCs have no class levels, but this is a Red Herring anyway. Whether or not NPCs gain levels is entirely irrelevant to whether or not a PC should be able to learn a skill that has no in-fiction reason to be barred from the PC.

And again, you are assuming that it's just a skill. But first, it might not be a skill that can be learned, it can be magic that only operates on specific individuals (again, common fantasy trope), and second, once more, are you ready to allow abilities that are incredibly powerful in a PC hand like Parry (+6 to AC as a reaction, absolutely at will).

And again, trading off with something unacceptable to a player does not count, it's just as good as saying no with extra steps.

 

[Lyxen]

Has @Maxperson or anyone on here said that PCs should be able to train in innate abilities of other species?

Yes, from the start of this discussion, it's been about NPCs being different, it has never been about whether an ability is innate or not. I understand that some are now backing off and claiming this specifically for "skills", but it's not how it started, we've been discussing the Death Knight for quite a while now for example.

Or have they focused on when humanoid things trained to learn combat maneuvers, or when a "mage" or "wizard" cast a spell, or when a humanoid merchant was pricing up goods?

Discussions have been going in many directions, it seems now focussed on things that could be "learned".

Did anything in the post above I @'ed you in about conflating the different questions in this thread make/not-make sense? Or was it just unhelpful?

I wanted to answer it, but I had to work and it slipped in a long queue...

 

[Maxperson]

So it's actually the other way around, you would customise the game to allow a PC to gain any ability from a NPC (actually meaning any monster) ? For example attacks which are always poisoned as for the assassin ? Shadow step absolutely at will ? War magic (When the githyanki uses its action to cast a spell, it can make one weapon attack as a bonus action) at will ? And many more example of powers which are incredibly powerful in the hands of PCs because they are at will, making them way more powerful than standard class powers ?

There should be avenues. Is the price worth it? Maybe, maybe not. How long would it take a fighter to learn the shadowstep ability? He'd have to figure who teaches it, and that's probably someone who isn't nice and might as soon kill you as teach you. He'd have to agree to whatever that person wanted as the price, which might be steep. And it would take time. Again, the point isn't whether the PC WOULD learn it, but that it be possible(not guaranteed) to learn.

Have you ever done so ?

Yes, but it's very rare. 19 times out of 20(far less often really) the players don't even ask, so I don't bother to even figure it out unless someone does.

And what if it's not learned ? The Death Knight did not learn his abilities, but neither are they racial.

They are racial. Undead isn't a race, it's a category. Death Knight would be the specific race of undead, and those abilities are innate to the race.

Yes, it's all very nice theoretically, but in practice, have you done so ?

Yes, very rarely. Usually the price is such that even on those rare occasions that the player asks me about it, the PC opts not to pursue it.

You think it's sensible to give NPC more or less at will powers to PCs ? What does it do to the game ?

With a balancing cost, why not?

 

[Lyxen]

I don't know. I asked in #305 if anyone in this thread had claimed it should be a thing. (One of my most hated things in 3/3.5/PF was that commoners/experts got more hitpoints as the leveled).

Exactly my problem. Why should someone who is just becoming a better merchant get more hit points, better saves, additional proficiencies, etc. ?

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, from the start of this discussion, it's been about NPCs being different, it has never been about whether an ability is innate or not.

This is just not true. From the get go I've been talking about learnable skills, not any sort of innate racial ability.

I understand that some are now backing off and claiming this specifically for "skills", but it's not how it started, we've been discussing the Death Knight for quite a while now for example.

That is not how it started for me. At no point was I ever arguing racial abilities should be learnable.