Are OGL publishers still 3pps? (a forked thread)

[Wicht]

Forked from: I currently play x edition and I do or don't buy 3pp stuff. A POLL

Is there such a thing as a 3e 3rd party publisher anymore? Would this require WotC to be the primary publisher of 3e, which is not currently the case as they ceased publishing (and now even selling) any 3e material.

I asked this question in the poll thread and nobody answered it. Some related questions that I am interested in hearing what people think.

Does 3pp merely mean a smaller company than WotC to most people? Is Chaosium then a 3pp though they are the main publishers of the CoC rules/game.

Will Paizo still be a 3pp in August when they are supporting their own 3e/OGL system?

Is Green Ronin a 3pp when they publish their own systems? Does the fact they also support other systems at times affect this.

If the principle party (WotC) ceases to support, in any form, 3e material, are they still the principle party? If they pass the baton to a smaller company is the smaller company a 3pp or do they now become the principle?

 

[Wicht]

One reason I am curious is because the term 3pp gets thrown around a lot but I wonder if people just instinctively use it for any non-WotC publisher? And will the term eventually change as WotC moves further away from 3e in time and others continue to support the OGL?

Also, if 3pp was dropped, what would be the better term to describe the OGL publishers?

 

[dmccoy1693]

Does 3pp merely mean a smaller company than WotC to most people? Is Chaosium then a 3pp though they are the main publishers of the CoC rules/game.

Will Paizo still be a 3pp in August when they are supporting their own 3e/OGL system?

Is Green Ronin a 3pp when they publish their own systems? Does the fact they also support other systems at times affect this.

If the principle party (WotC) ceases to support, in any form, 3e material, are they still the principle party? If they pass the baton to a smaller company is the smaller company a 3pp or do they now become the principle?

In order: No. No. No. No. Yes. Yes. and Yes.

Longer version: The central issue appears to be Rules Ownership. In short: Wizards own the rules to 3.5; other publishers are permitted to publish under them via a license, but Wizards still owns them. Therefore, publishers that publish material using those rules are still third party publishers (3pp).

If Wizards decided this time next year to publish under the Pathfinder License, than Wizards would be a 3pp to Paizo. Size makes no difference here. So no, Chaosium and White Wolf are not 3rd party publishers.

Green Ronin publishes the Character Record Folio for 4E and also makes True20/M&M material. For purposes of that 1 product as well as their library of old d20 material, they are a 3pp, but when talking about M&M/True20, they are the principle publisher (or 1pp, if we decide to keep a numeric naming convention).

Same is true with Paizo. Currently a 3pp but will be 1pp when pathfinder RPG comes out. Do Paizo and Green Ronin own their rulessets? IANAL, but if I understand it correctly (and I may not) they own the parts/modifications that they created themselves.

Myself, I run a 3pp for Traveller. So I am not a 3pp with regards to anything 3.5/4E based. I do however use the OGL so OGL publisher to describe a 3.5/d20/Pathfinder/etc based 3pp is not entirely accurate.

 

[El Mahdi]

Also, if 3pp was dropped, what would be the better term to describe the OGL publishers?

I'm sure that everything dmccoy1693 said is probably correct (at least it sounded correct to me). But, if one didn't want to call them 3pp anymore, then I guess you could use something like Open System publisher, or Open Fantasy publisher. At least those sound good to me.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Yeah they are still 3pp, they don't own the rights. You can suggest a name but chances of it getting traction over a (very easily typed) 3pp...? Pretty slim IMO.

 

[Wicht]

Yeah they are still 3pp, they don't own the rights. You can suggest a name but chances of it getting traction over a (very easily typed) 3pp...? Pretty slim IMO.

I assume you mean the rights to the OGL.

By that logic all OGL games, including those that aren't d20 are 3pp games, correct?

I always assumed that 3pp meant that the publishers were supporting a system, not a license.

 

[Wicht]

I do however use the OGL so OGL publisher to describe a 3.5/d20/Pathfinder/etc based 3pp is not entirely accurate.

I'm not sure I follow that sentence.

 

[Umbran]

I assume you mean the rights to the OGL.

Not quite.

WotC owns the copyright to D&D 3.x. They have chosen to license it under the OGL, but WotC still owns the actual copyright.

By that logic all OGL games, including those that aren't d20 are 3pp games, correct?

Not necessarily. OGL does not mean "derived from d20". If I write my own game system, not based on d20 at all, I can release that system under the OGL.

I always assumed that 3pp meant that the publishers were supporting a system, not a license.

It does. "Third party" means "not one of the first two parties". The first two parties are the ones who originally publish (and thus held the rights to) the game, and the gamers who play.

The fact that the original publisher/rights owner has chosen to stop publishing the system does not mean they cease to be the first party. They still own the base system that is being supported.

 

[Betote]

Right now, the only WotC 3.x books I own are Oriental Adventures, Eberron Campaign Setting and Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. On the other hand, I have every Pathfinder book that has been published.

Who's the "3rd Party Publisher"?

 

[Wicht]

Not quite.

WotC owns the copyright to D&D 3.x. They have chosen to license it under the OGL, but WotC still owns the actual copyright.

The poster's use of the word "right" was ambiguous and I was trying to clarify what he meant. But since you chimed in...

The fact that the original publisher/rights owner has chosen to stop publishing the system does not mean they cease to be the first party. They still own the base system that is being supported.

How would you apply this to the Pathfinder RPG or to True 20. Are those 3pp games, in your opinion, or 1pp games?