Are people still mad about . . .

[Tinker Gnome]

I am not mad about anything really, but I do wish they had not pulled the PDFs.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

One thing that I learned in my Conflict Negotiation & Mediation program is that you don't win any arguments by discounting a party's emotional response to the situation. All you do is erect barriers to rational discourse.

Some players- myself included- were insulted by the language and tone 4Ed designers took when discussing 3.5. I actually talked about that from a marketing & advertising point of view when they were doing it. It was one of the first indicators to me that I wasn't going to care for the next edition.

You may not agree with the perception certain gamers had of the rollout, but don't tell us we were wrong to be insulted.

Exactly.

Also I tried to give a 4E a fair shot. I ran a few games (but never played as a player) and it was in the middle of one combat that I realized that it REALLY felt more like a mini's skirmish game. It felt like the D&D Miniatures game that they had just cancelled. The encapsulation of powers and the short monster stat blocks made for a great mini's game, but not a game that I was interested in playing as D&D.

I'm not saying that it is a bad or poorly designed game, it's not. But I've tried to pull the PHB off of the shelf and love it but I can't. It's the way that powers are done for the PC's that REALLY drive me away from the system. I've tried to reverse engineer 3.5 / Pathfinder abilities into powers to see if it's just me and maybe it's not that big of a deal. Only to discover that IT IS a really big deal. A deal breaker. So I can't say that I HATE or am MAD about 4E but it's the ONLY edition of D&D (been playing since Red Box) that I can't bring myself to support.

I also really didn't like the tone of SOME of the designers when talking about 3.5. Comparisons to the older game to sell your new one. But I think that if you can't tell me what you like about something without bashing something else then you've got an issue.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbbqMoEwDqc"]Like this[/ame]


Also while I'm not a 4E fan, I'm a little annoyed that nothing ever came of [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aLXuMb6WWw"]this[/ame] especially the game table....

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

And how did WotC go about collecting this information? Was it a survey? A general examination of trends? Or perhaps (more likely based on the results) the devs simply assumed their own playstyles and experiences were reflected in the majority? Cause nothing you've said in the above paragraph is really supported by any data or facts. On the other hand, the results seem to support my idea.

They did do surveys during 3E, I participated in no less than 3. They also listened to fans on the road at cons. They also listened to posts here and on their own site. The reason we have no data or facts is because all we have is the word of the devs. And what results support your idea? That 4E is selling? That some people got angry and blew up on the interwebs? I can either take the word of devs of the company that they listened to their customers or I can believe the idea of Chrono22 on the interweb. Hmmm.....

One thing that I learned in my Conflict Negotiation & Mediation program is that you don't win any arguments by discounting a party's emotional response to the situation. All you do is erect barriers to rational discourse.

I'm not discounting anyone's emotional response. I said:

I don't see why they were insulting.

Emphasis mine. I stated my opinion and why I wouldn't be insulted if I were still a 3E fan. That's all.

Edit: Actually I am still a fan of 3E. It is a fun edition of the game for me as a player, I just do not prefer to DM it.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Pretty much everything that still sets me growling has been mentioned already.

The lead up to 4e, especially the attitude towards the older games - "D&D is a game about slaying horrible monsters, not a game about traipsing off through fairy rings and interacting with the little people."
James Wyatt, Races and Classes

Thanks Mr. Wyatt - that was the point where I decided 4e was not for me. You see, I do want games where the PCs do something other than combat. You saved me a lot of time right there.... Charging as much for an advertisement for the new edition as the 3e rules cost when they first came out was another bit of class.

The GSL. When I decided to actively dislike 4e rather than just ignore it. Oh, and let's charge a thousand bucks for the license if they want to use it early! Whoops, sorry, no license yet, but at least you didn't spend a K ahead of time, right?

Deciding that OGL and GSL products could be sold in the same lines, but only after the deadline to destroy the offending OGL products had passed....

Calling back all the licenses. Sure, these people are doing a great job with Dragon/Dungeon/Dragonlance/What Have You, and we are only going to do a few books in each line before abandoning them, but let's call back all the licenses!

Ending PDFs... 'cause we all know that being able to get stuff legally is what leads to piracy.... Especially when it is stuff that is out of print otherwise!

I think that a lot of this was not deliberate malice, just plain incompetence, but good golly Miss Molly....

The Auld Grump

 

[Aeolius]

The lead up to 4e, especially the attitude towards the older games - "D&D is a game about slaying horrible monsters, not a game about traipsing off through fairy rings and interacting with the little people." James Wyatt, Races and Classes

I'm glad someone besides me brought that one up. People will come out of the woodwork and say that the quote is taken out of context. I read the blurb in Races & Classes, and it's just as insulting when you read the lead-in. Traipsing off through fairy rings and interacting with the little people is infinitely more interesting and appealing that playing smack-bottom with some horrible monster.

I admit that I play D&D a bit loosey-goosey; I'm in it for the fun, not nit-picking with stats. My games are typically combat-light, because of it. With characters and monsters being defined by their role in combat, 4e left a sour taste in my mouth.

Oh, and I'm a leap-grognard; 1e to 3e to 5e (though I started with Basic, to be fair)

 

[Chrono22]

They did do surveys during 3E, I participated in no less than 3. They also listened to fans on the road at cons. They also listened to posts here and on their own site. The reason we have no data or facts is because all we have is the word of the devs.

Yeah and they are totally reliable. How's that gametable going? Still working on it huh? That's good to hear. How about that GSL? Still supporting 3ps? What? PDFs created piracy? Oh gee golly me, what shall we do.

And what results support your idea? That 4E is selling? That some people got angry and blew up on the interwebs? I can either take the word of devs of the company that they listened to their customers or I can believe the idea of Chrono22 on the interweb. Hmmm.....

A split consumer base = large numbers of dissatisfied customers. Either their market research was wrong, or they didn't do any.
And please, don't make the mistake of assuming your opinion ever mattered in the first place. 4e was in production long before they ever declared it existed. Nothing about any of the so-called playtests they did has lead me to believe those were anything but ways of increasing 4e's exposure before release.

 

[evildmguy]

Hmm. Some more good stuff.

I wonder if the developers, after being immersed in 4E and enjoying it, just wanted to show it off? But I can't speak for them. That they did a poor job is too bad. I didn't take it that way, and I might play 3E but I don't want to DM it anymore, as others have said. I like DMing 4E. Having said that, I might not be as anal about things in 3E as I could be but there is more to why I was unhappy with 3E. I know a lot weren't, and I hope they are still having fun!

I said it already but I am also sorry about the game table. I could really use that about now!

The lead up to 4e, especially the attitude towards the older games - "D&D is a game about slaying horrible monsters, not a game about traipsing off through fairy rings and interacting with the little people."
James Wyatt, Races and Classes

I am not arguing that this can be taken poorly. I took it more as a shot against some other RPGs (Fairyland or Changling) and about DND getting back to its roots of monsters vs PCs and monsters having kewl powerz to challenge the PCs. But, again, I was their demographic for a new edition.

I'm not saying that it is a bad or poorly designed game, it's not. But I've tried to pull the PHB off of the shelf and love it but I can't. It's the way that powers are done for the PC's that REALLY drive me away from the system. I've tried to reverse engineer 3.5 / Pathfinder abilities into powers to see if it's just me and maybe it's not that big of a deal. Only to discover that IT IS a really big deal. A deal breaker. So I can't say that I HATE or am MAD about 4E but it's the ONLY edition of D&D (been playing since Red Box) that I can't bring myself to support.

Would you mind explaining this more? I don't think I completely understand it.

I can only speak for myself but I am impressed how quickly some people understood 4E. I am still struggling with it. It took me nine months of weekly gaming sessions playing with nWoD to begin to grok it and probably a year for Alternity, but I was messing around with it and playing with Red Dragon's fantasy rules and not the core stuff. I do understand the core Alternity well. In any case, the point is that I am still learning 4E and enjoying it.

I would like to see more Adventure tools come out. Monster Builder is great, especially since I am playing Dark Sun, but I would love to see item builder or class builder or map builder or something else. And it's not that I don't have tools to do some of these things. But I really hate struggling with the tool as I try and plan something. (I think I have given up on ProFantasy after ten years. Ten years! And it's me, not them. I couldn't make my maps look as "pretty" as I wanted and so thought I needed to stop fooling myself and give it up.)

Again, it's interesting to me how much I have learned about previous versions and tools, like the World Builder's Guidebook (I am sorry I don't have that anymore), as I better understand how to use them. Only years later.

*sigh*

edg

 

[Khairn]

Still mad? About a couple of things, I would have to say yes.

I've GM'ed and played 4E, and I know what parts of the system I like and which parts I don't care for. WotC appears to be making 4E players happy with their products, and I'm quite happy with the job Paizo and other companies (KQ, Rite etc) have done to support those gamers who don't like the latest edition. So system wise, I have no issues. Play whatever game you enjoy, its all good.

But then we have some other decisions that WotC has made which still raise my ire. As an example, the elimination of the magazines, promoting 4E by equating 3E to badwrongfun, handling of GSL, FR, eliminating the sale of all pdf's including older editions, licensing, etc etc. But pretty much all of those things are marketing, customer relations and management decision, and not system related. In my book WotC has succeeded in creating a negative reputation for themselves amongst a large part of the gaming community that is completely separate from the products they sell.

And as for Exalted and White Wolf's "Graduate your Game" promotion, I thought it was brilliant. I know a couple of players who made the switch, and enjoyed the game although all are playing something else right now.

 

[Dannager]

I read the blurb in Races & Classes, and it's just as insulting when you read the lead-in. Traipsing off through fairy rings and interacting with the little people is infinitely more interesting and appealing that playing smack-bottom with some horrible monster.

To you.

That doesn't mean D&D isn't designed in a certain direction. You can employ the system (however awkwardly) to accomplish whatever you may like, including traipsing off through fairy rings, but that doesn't mean the game doesn't have a core and a focus.

If you find interacting with little people more interesting than exploring dungeons and slaying monsters, that's cool. Use D&D or don't use D&D; it really doesn't matter. You'll enjoy your game, and we'll enjoy ours. Finding insult in the statement of a designer who was simply pointing out what the game is designed to best accomplish is just silly, though.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I also really didn't like the tone of SOME of the designers when talking about 3.5. Comparisons to the older game to sell your new one. But I think that if you can't tell me what you like about something without bashing something else then you've got an issue.

Like this

Thanks for posting that. It was one of the examples I was thinking of when I originally posted about the bad marketing scheme WotC had rolled out. Its one thing to compare your new product to your old, its quite another to actually denigrate your previous product in order to sell the new.

And that's just one example of the snark that ticked some of us off.