Are people still mad about . . .
- Thread starter evildmguy
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Raven Crowking
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The Ghost
Explorer
On the internet you don't get to see my face; you don't know my name; you don't hear the tone in my voice; you don't get to see my facial expressions - all you have is the words I write and the moniker/avatar to the left. For some reason some people seem to think that that anonymity gives them the right to say some of the most vial and mean-spirited things imaginable - things most of us would never say to someone's face.
malkav666
First Post
I don't really get mad over games. I was mad about the PDF thing because I lost access to some files I had paid for. Sure it could be said that this was my fault for not DLing them right away, but none the less it pissed me off as a consumer of those files that I had given my money for. I eventually got over it and got the files I payed for from an alternate source.
That and a couple of other things left a sour taste in my mouth about buying products from Hasbro/WOTC. I still give them a little money here and there for a few packs of minis and the occassional set of tiles and I will likely buy the Ravenloft game this year, but on the whole, the lionshare of my gaming budget is being spent with other gaming companies.
Its not an issue of being mad at anyone. WOTC has had some products that I thought were great in the past and has introduced a lot of awesome into the hobby. After the Star Wars liscense goes the way of the dodo I can't say that any of their other lines (aside from the previously mentioned minis and tiles) really grab me as a customer as something I want/need.
I don't really care for 4e as a game. The way it was marketed seemed like a poor choice to me but didn't really ruffle my feathers. I bought the game when it first came out and played for regularly for over a year. My group just wasn't into it as much as they were into 3.x and some other games we play. So we went back to 3.x and played that. When PF was released we gave it a gander and while not being exactly what we wanted it was pretty close to 3.x and had just enough "new" to it to excite my players into playing classes they had already played out/were tired of.
Emotion just doesn't come into it for me. It felt kind of strange to leave the official D&D brand after so many years with it for an "alt" D&D. But the folks I game with (and myself) just couldn't seem to connect with the new version of D&D. It's not completely alien to us. There are plenty of familiar mechanics there. But all in all the experience left us wanting something more. We tried to supplement the experience with more source books, but in the end, we found the experience to just be lacking something. I won't go in great specifics, but the overall time we spent with it just seemed kinda bleh. Everything felt the same for us. Please note I am not knocking the system or saying anyone has bad taste. It just didn't do it for us, and WOTC angst or the lack there of really had nothing to do with it. we played it and judged it as a game, not as the product of a company and found that it did not meet our standards for a game that we would like to continue playing regularly. I understand there are folks that love it. I am totally cool with that. I think everyone should partake in things in life that they dig. the fact that some folks dig different stuff then me really does not matter to me. If it makes you happy go for it I say.
We are mainly playing PFRPG now. Its not perfect. But it's in print so we don't have to pay ridiculous after market prices for it, and it stands up pretty good on its own and my group is happy playing it. But to reiterate, we are not playing this game because are mad at WOTC/Hasbro. We are playing it because we find it to be enjoyable.
love,
malkav
That and a couple of other things left a sour taste in my mouth about buying products from Hasbro/WOTC. I still give them a little money here and there for a few packs of minis and the occassional set of tiles and I will likely buy the Ravenloft game this year, but on the whole, the lionshare of my gaming budget is being spent with other gaming companies.
Its not an issue of being mad at anyone. WOTC has had some products that I thought were great in the past and has introduced a lot of awesome into the hobby. After the Star Wars liscense goes the way of the dodo I can't say that any of their other lines (aside from the previously mentioned minis and tiles) really grab me as a customer as something I want/need.
I don't really care for 4e as a game. The way it was marketed seemed like a poor choice to me but didn't really ruffle my feathers. I bought the game when it first came out and played for regularly for over a year. My group just wasn't into it as much as they were into 3.x and some other games we play. So we went back to 3.x and played that. When PF was released we gave it a gander and while not being exactly what we wanted it was pretty close to 3.x and had just enough "new" to it to excite my players into playing classes they had already played out/were tired of.
Emotion just doesn't come into it for me. It felt kind of strange to leave the official D&D brand after so many years with it for an "alt" D&D. But the folks I game with (and myself) just couldn't seem to connect with the new version of D&D. It's not completely alien to us. There are plenty of familiar mechanics there. But all in all the experience left us wanting something more. We tried to supplement the experience with more source books, but in the end, we found the experience to just be lacking something. I won't go in great specifics, but the overall time we spent with it just seemed kinda bleh. Everything felt the same for us. Please note I am not knocking the system or saying anyone has bad taste. It just didn't do it for us, and WOTC angst or the lack there of really had nothing to do with it. we played it and judged it as a game, not as the product of a company and found that it did not meet our standards for a game that we would like to continue playing regularly. I understand there are folks that love it. I am totally cool with that. I think everyone should partake in things in life that they dig. the fact that some folks dig different stuff then me really does not matter to me. If it makes you happy go for it I say.
We are mainly playing PFRPG now. Its not perfect. But it's in print so we don't have to pay ridiculous after market prices for it, and it stands up pretty good on its own and my group is happy playing it. But to reiterate, we are not playing this game because are mad at WOTC/Hasbro. We are playing it because we find it to be enjoyable.
love,
malkav
evildmguy
Explorer
Wow! Good stuff here! Thanks for all of the responses!
I was a bit disappointed at the comparisons and edition wars over the year(s) but that's to be expected. Having said that, I probably learned more about what 1E was trying to do, what it did well and what it didn't do well from current discussions than anything back then! Yes, the internet helps a lot with that but still. It was very interesting to see what 1E was trying to do from a fresh perspective. To some extent 2E, since they weren't all that different, imo.
It's also interesting about the "split to the community" and I wonder how true it is. I am sad by that but hope that people are happy for others, however that happens. For me, it's about gaming in a group and having fun, regardless of the rules used.
What's interesting to me is how it appears that those who liked 3E a lot don't like 4E and those who like 1E/2E like 4E. Unfortunately, that's a generalization at best and with scant evidence. But, I could see 3E AND 4E having come from 1E/2E just following different evolutionary paths and objectives in a game.
I do miss the gametable from DDI and would love to see it get more support and more tool releases. But that's because my group has two remote players and so things like that would help me run my game! I get by with other tools that are just fine but am curious what a company like WotC would have produced. Even the character visualizer, which was demoed at the '08 Gen Con, would have been cool to play with and have. Ah, well.
I do miss print Dungeon and Dragon. I am finding that I don't read everything like I did when it was in print. That's me and even though I really like technology, I don't always embrace it all. I haven't yet but thought about printing out the electronic versions so I would actually read everything.
I'm sorry that Exalted wasn't like 4E or had a supported character builder that printed out Charms and powers on cards. (Yes, it could support cards but wouldn't be used in the same way.) I really, really like the setting of Exalted but I think the system doesn't work for it as well as they think. At least, not in how I understand it.
Really, that's the reason I started this thread. I was curious if anyone else remembered the "graduate your game" and no one has mentioned it except for me! And it didn't bother me, but amused me. It makes more sense, because Exalted is quite complex. I am sure if I was playing it regularly I would understand it more but it seems to take time that I don't have.
I am disappointed that the Alternity game wasn't used for 3E or 4E and is firmly OOP. It has so many strengths because it has limits for the main characters, that don't have to be there for monsters, and is a fun system. What stopped me playing it was lack of new material, or that I had to write new material and play test it while playing (there's that lack of time again), which is tough for me. I really enjoyed it as a system and might use it for modern/future but didn't like where my fantasy campaigns went with it.
Thanks!
edg
I was a bit disappointed at the comparisons and edition wars over the year(s) but that's to be expected. Having said that, I probably learned more about what 1E was trying to do, what it did well and what it didn't do well from current discussions than anything back then! Yes, the internet helps a lot with that but still. It was very interesting to see what 1E was trying to do from a fresh perspective. To some extent 2E, since they weren't all that different, imo.
It's also interesting about the "split to the community" and I wonder how true it is. I am sad by that but hope that people are happy for others, however that happens. For me, it's about gaming in a group and having fun, regardless of the rules used.
What's interesting to me is how it appears that those who liked 3E a lot don't like 4E and those who like 1E/2E like 4E. Unfortunately, that's a generalization at best and with scant evidence. But, I could see 3E AND 4E having come from 1E/2E just following different evolutionary paths and objectives in a game.
I do miss the gametable from DDI and would love to see it get more support and more tool releases. But that's because my group has two remote players and so things like that would help me run my game! I get by with other tools that are just fine but am curious what a company like WotC would have produced. Even the character visualizer, which was demoed at the '08 Gen Con, would have been cool to play with and have. Ah, well.
I do miss print Dungeon and Dragon. I am finding that I don't read everything like I did when it was in print. That's me and even though I really like technology, I don't always embrace it all. I haven't yet but thought about printing out the electronic versions so I would actually read everything.
I'm sorry that Exalted wasn't like 4E or had a supported character builder that printed out Charms and powers on cards. (Yes, it could support cards but wouldn't be used in the same way.) I really, really like the setting of Exalted but I think the system doesn't work for it as well as they think. At least, not in how I understand it.
Really, that's the reason I started this thread. I was curious if anyone else remembered the "graduate your game" and no one has mentioned it except for me! And it didn't bother me, but amused me. It makes more sense, because Exalted is quite complex. I am sure if I was playing it regularly I would understand it more but it seems to take time that I don't have.
I am disappointed that the Alternity game wasn't used for 3E or 4E and is firmly OOP. It has so many strengths because it has limits for the main characters, that don't have to be there for monsters, and is a fun system. What stopped me playing it was lack of new material, or that I had to write new material and play test it while playing (there's that lack of time again), which is tough for me. I really enjoyed it as a system and might use it for modern/future but didn't like where my fantasy campaigns went with it.
Thanks!
edg
gamerprinter
Mapper/Publisher
Regarding your point about MapTable - what's the problem there are plenty of both free and paid-for Virtual Terrain applications out there to play D&D. It almost like your "Walmart" of gaming stuff all as to have WotC written all over it for you to touch it. That's unfortunate because long before WotC started talking about GameTable there were worthwhile options already in existence. You don't need the DDi to give and your remote gaming group an online source to play games. Its like you use DDi as your crutch - if it ain't there, it doesn't exist.
I use MapTools which is free and powerful and does everything and more that GameTable was supposed to be. Lucky for me since I'm not "all about 4e" I have many options to fulfill my needs. I think you need to step out of the DDi and look around, the world is a much bigger and option filled place.
Not trying to be overly critical, just your point falls flat when you keep running back to DDi with your explanations. You need to get out more. (But don't take me too seriously - do what makes you happy.)
GP
I use MapTools which is free and powerful and does everything and more that GameTable was supposed to be. Lucky for me since I'm not "all about 4e" I have many options to fulfill my needs. I think you need to step out of the DDi and look around, the world is a much bigger and option filled place.
Not trying to be overly critical, just your point falls flat when you keep running back to DDi with your explanations. You need to get out more. (But don't take me too seriously - do what makes you happy.)
GP
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Jeff Wilder
First Post
Speaking personally, it's very real.
There are games that I'd seek to play in if the DM wasn't set on 4E. (I have played 4E, and I suppose I'd play it again if it were put in front of my face, but it just doesn't interest me enough to go out of my way for it.)
And there are players that would have played in my games if I were running 4E (instead of 3.5 and Pathfinder, and now M&M). My housemate liked 4E enough that she played in our brief experiment with 4E, but wouldn't play in our 3.5/PF games. (Amusingly, she -- with no exposure to such opinions online or otherwise -- said that she liked how much 4E was like MMORPGs.)
So there's a very real split, and I guess I'm just fortunate that in my area it seems to fall in favor of 3.5/PF. The one guy I know that plays 4E regularly goes to Sacramento to play.
Haffrung Helleyes
First Post
yes
I'll admit, I don't like the Wayne Reynolds pathfinder art direction (big swords, spiky hair, etc). I wish Pathfinder was even more traditional than it was.
But, it's still closer to what I want than 4E. By a mile.
So, to reiterate, I'm pleased at how things turned out. Pathfinder is D&D for me, in everything but name. And it's owned and run by really cool people who I want to do business with. I can live with the big swords and spiky hair!
Ken
I'll admit, I don't like the Wayne Reynolds pathfinder art direction (big swords, spiky hair, etc). I wish Pathfinder was even more traditional than it was.
But, it's still closer to what I want than 4E. By a mile.
So, to reiterate, I'm pleased at how things turned out. Pathfinder is D&D for me, in everything but name. And it's owned and run by really cool people who I want to do business with. I can live with the big swords and spiky hair!
Ken
I have to agree with that. With Pathfinder, I did not read the flavor text as much as the crunch. I don't need flavor text at this point, so I did not give it a proper analysis. The rules allow me to run the classes with 1st through 3rd edition flavour so I am satisfied. I have not done a comparison of the flavor, but maybe now I will
Sadly I must agree
Scribble
First Post
I stopped shopping at Gamescape because the guy behind the counter went on a tirade about how 4e was for kids, and not really D&D... It was just annoying.
I always like Games of Berkeley better anyway, so it wasn't a huge deal. I know GoB had weekly 4e games (my friend was playing in one of them) and our weekly group was filled with people in multiple groups all of them 4e games.
These were all also in Berkeley so maybe your friend can stop going all the way to Sac...
I think like everything else though, it just depends on the groups and their current tastes.
evildmguy
Explorer
gamerprinter: If your comments are to me about DDI, yes. Essentially. I have casual gamers and they wanted a computer helper program from day one instead of doing it by hand. After all of the choices of 3E, I can understand that. And, the character builder is nice in that it does figure out things for us. I am disappointed I can't enter my own data. This is actually not fair to the group. I really only have one player who would be turned off by doing it by hand and had one guy who was doing some things by hand. The others would do it by hand but like the character builder. So do I because it lets me focus on other aspects of the character instead of mechanics.
And, as I said, I am using tools to have a virtual game table already. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.
Haffrun and Scribble: Wow. Just, wow. The problem is that I am the DM and have not usually had a problem finding players. Further, my players have been very generous in going along with me if I wanted to run something other than DND. I think the trade off is that I don't get the character depth I would like to see but that's hardly their issue.
btw, I also have a tough time getting into Exalted/Anime style art with huge swords. Even with the explanations of how it can be done, it seems silly to me. So, I get not wanting that. I can see how that would fit a high level 3.X/PF game but that's not how I imagine it, generally.
edg
And, as I said, I am using tools to have a virtual game table already. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.
Haffrun and Scribble: Wow. Just, wow. The problem is that I am the DM and have not usually had a problem finding players. Further, my players have been very generous in going along with me if I wanted to run something other than DND. I think the trade off is that I don't get the character depth I would like to see but that's hardly their issue.
btw, I also have a tough time getting into Exalted/Anime style art with huge swords. Even with the explanations of how it can be done, it seems silly to me. So, I get not wanting that. I can see how that would fit a high level 3.X/PF game but that's not how I imagine it, generally.
edg
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