Are Poison Dusk Lizardfolk too powerful for only LA+1?

[Thraka]

During the course of looking for any LA+1 races I might want to include in my next campaign, I was going through my MMIII today when I happened upon Poison Dusk Lizardfolk. I was browsing their racial traits when it occured to me that they're quite good as LA +1 PC characters. Perhaps, dare I say it?, too good.

For anyone else who has the MMIII, what did you think of these guys as possible candidates for a PC race? It just seems that when compared to something like the hobgoblin (also LA+1), Poison Dusks get decent ability bonuses and no real signifigant penalties, a nice natural armor bonus, and faster than average movement for Small creatures. I'm not saying Poison Dusks're should be an LA+2 race, but I think that either their natural armor is a bit too high, or they need a penalty to strength.

Thoughts, anybody? I'd still like to include these guys, but I figure I'd best get any power-level tweaks out of my system.

 

[3d6]

Comparing to hobgoblins is a bad idea. Hobgoblins are very weak for a LA +1 creature. I've seen a poison dusk lizardman in play, and the character caused no problems. (He was a ranger focused on archery and poison use.)

 

[Kobold Stew]

I think you are right, Thraka, in ways that are telling and quite interesting. I see Poison Dusks as a paradigm of "Power Creep" over time. It's not that they are horrendoulsly out of whack, but they are consciously out of whack comapared to previous humanoids. The PD lizardfolk are better than Hobgoblins, but more importantly, they are (from a PC's perspective) virtually always going to be better than non-PD (regular) Lizardfolk, since the severely penalizing hit dice have been stripped. As long as you don't mind being small, PD Lizardfolk are better than Lizardfolk two levels behind them! (That's at equal ECL; but think about it--a difference of 2 ECL make Poison dusk lizzes practicable spellcasters).

All the following are suppposed to be equal from a PC (ECL) perspective:

First level Lizardfolk ranger
First level Gnoll Ranger (who have the advantage of favoured class!)
Fourth Level kobold or Goblin ranger
Third level Hobgoblin ranger
Third level Poison Dusk Lizardfolk ranger.

This gives us a range of humanoids from "monster" races (PD Lizardfolk could stand up to native Outsiders, too), and I think it is clear the the PDL is OTT. (A 4th level Orc ranger might be close, given the orc's strength bonus).

The Whisper Gnome is a similar position; I suspect that Frostburn's Snow Goblin is as well (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040911a&page=4 with its climb speed and 30' movement for +1) though I've not played one.

When balancing races, the Monster Manual always "rounded up" in terms of level adjustment--it was almost always better to play a standard race, and thehre were penalties associated with the fun of non-standard choices. Later books, clearly, have not followed that rule.

Your suggested penalties might balance things out. I think the strength penalty is important , but that's another rant...

KS.

 

[frankthedm]

Comparing to hobgoblins is a bad idea. Hobgoblins are very weak for a LA +1 creature. I've seen a poison dusk lizardman in play, and the character caused no problems. (He was a ranger focused on archery and poison use.)

ranger class is NOT the problem with the PDLF. Rogue is. Great Hide, Good Natural Armor and Claw, Claw, Bite attacks seasoned with sneak attack become obcene very quickly. Poison Use is Icing on the cake [carry LARGE doses of ingested poisons for monsters that swallow whole] Best Melee rogue class I have seen. Only thing that even slighly keeps them in check was the clause in sneak attack crybaby players hate:

The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

Needless to say, My PDLF packed a small long spear.

 

[3d6]

I don't think the natural attack routine is a big advantage. It has certain advantages over two-weapon fighting, but in the long run two weapon fighting has a signifigantly higher base damage, better accuracy, and substaintially more attacks per round.

Also, the hide ability only works when the lizardfolk are unarmored. Most adventurers are going to be wearing armor of some kind, so this ability seems rather limited.

Really, the big advantage is the Small size, the natural armor, and the favorable ability score modifiers, none of which are over-the-top for a level adjustment +1 creature.

 

[Thraka]

Really, the big advantage is the Small size, the natural armor, and the favorable ability score modifiers, none of which are over-the-top for a level adjustment +1 creature.

Truth be told, it was the natural armor that caught my eye. It's a bit much, I think, considering that they arleady get a bonus from being Small. The favorable ability scores I can live with, they seem in line with other LA+1 creatures. It just seems to me that they've got an awfully big boost to AC, and when taken in consideration with everything else they get... well. I think maybe the natural AC bonus needs to be nocked down by one, since they already get a point of AC from their Small size.

Of course, this discussion really seems to have taught me something: Poison Dusk lizardfolk aren't too powerful, not really. They're a strong LA+1, to be sure, but not over the top. What seems to set them apart, however, is that a lot of the other LA+1 creatures (especially in the first MM) kind of... well, suck. Perhaps instead of trying to tone down the PDL, it's stuff like gnolls and hobgoblins that should be toned up.

This suggests a spin-off thread: How would you make the hobgoblin and the gnoll decent LA+1 races?

 

[anon]

I agree. Most of the LAs are too high. Comparing what you get for an LA to what you get for a class level makes me think--stay core, every time.

Or they should standardize and make official one of the alternate buy-off/fall-off systems so that at higher levels (where the LA really starts to suck) you can lose the LA.