D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Oofta]

Considering how you keep coming back into the thread to rant about it and how “dead” 4e is, it really seems more like you have some sort of chip to deal with.

Nah, I just have a bad habit of responding to posts when people are making accusations about how opinions are "false" or somehow not subjective.

On the other hand it is an objective fact that 4E is no longer supported by WOTC. But that shouldn't affect your enjoyment of the game any more than my enjoyment of books by authors that passed away long ago.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It's almost like you have to choose the criteria for a subjective statement like "good" or "best". And then you are discussing the criteria you used in order to support your subjective statement.

I wonder who has talked about this.... tip of my tongue ....

Well, again, no. Not quite.

A good punk band isn’t necessarily a band made up of good musicians, but that isn’t the same thing as what you’re arguing.

On further thought, “good punk band” is probably subjective, though. “Good musician” isn’t.

Again, though, as a genre, punk (as well as other genres like noise and some types of metal) doesn’t rely on good musicianship. That isn’t the point of the music. You can say, “Sex Pistols were a pretty mediocre band”, and like...I mean, maybe? But who cares? No one loves them because they think they’re good.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Hussar]

"I'm having a pretty big difficulty understanding this. Game A says that you every time you hit, you do 6.5 points of damage. Game B says that every time you hit, you have to roll a d12. Those two things are identical, and yet someone is telling me that they prefer the method in Game B! I mean, c'mon."

When people can have different preferences over things that are objectively the same, why do you think you are going to make much headway regarding subjective preferences when things are objectively different?

Totally fair. If people were stating, "I like A (or B) better" then this conversation would be over.

But, that's not what people are insisting on stating. They're stating that A is DIFFERENT than B. That one has qualities that the other does not. That's not a subjective preference. That's simply objective fact - is A in fact different from B?

I'd love it if people were up front enough to simply state their preference without trying to pretend to some sort of justification for that preference using made up words with nebulous meanings that change depending on the preference of the speaker.

 

[Hussar]

This might be going down the rabbit hole again, but just entertain me.
My samey experience comes from the top-down approach (I believe @Imaro referred to it earlier more eloquently) where the requirement of a grid and the play of a power-"card" allows one to move along around the chessboard and where every other player is doing the same with the uniform AEDU and character sheets. So although the powers themselves may not be similar the play experience makes everything samey.
And then you add the language or slide/push - well that accentuates the samey experience for me since many a times they APPEAR similar on the board (not that they are technically the same). That is my samey experience with 4e. Nothing more nothing less.

Do any 4e proponents take issue with this description - and if so why?

No, to be honest, I don't see too much issue here. Personally, since I've played online for so long, the notion of TotM play is pretty far outside my wheelhouse so, the whole "grid" thing never bothered me whatsoever. I'd been playing on a grid exclusively for years before 4e came out, and still do so now.

And, yup, I can totally see how the 4e technical language can make things appear similar. Slide, push, pull, mark, a bajillion different standardized status effects, etc? Yeah, can get that.

The only real issue I would have is the "uniform AEDU". That was only true for a very, very short time. They broke out of the AEDU strict structure pretty quickly - PHB 3 had psionics and that was 2 years after the release of the game. Of the 40 (ish) classes, only about half actually follow AEDU strictly.

I suppose that plays into @lowkey13's notion of criteria. When people talk about "samey", what are they actually referring to? @Maxperson admitted that he only looks at the first three 4e books and others mentioned not including rituals in the discussion. I think those that are arguing most strongly against the notion of samey are likely looking at the game as a whole. Mostly because they were probably most invested in the game and most exposed to later additions to the game.

If you played 4e for the first year of release, then, well, sure, I can totally get why you would not like the game. Presentation and a LOT of mistakes in the system are not going to help anyone get over any dislike of the game. 4e's incredibly rapid release schedule did not help the game AT ALL.

 

[FrogReaver]

Two things: not all that is good will be successful, and not all that’s successful will be good. Even if we restrict the discussion to the simplest usage of “good”.

As well, “a band” isn’t a thing. A rock back, or a punk band, or a funk band, is a thing. Within the context of their genre, a punk band is good if they hit hard, have a coherent but not melodic sound, etc. ie, a band can be mediocre musically, and still be a good punk band.

Even if they’re wildly overrated.

So you are saying 4e is the punk band of D&d. Lol

 

[FrogReaver]

I don’t know how many times I have to say that 4e presentation didn’t bother me.

 

[Maxperson]

I did a quick Google search on "Protection fighting style" and one of the first hits talks about its incompatibility with the Sentinel feat. I don't want to speak for Garthanos, but it does kind of suck if I want to play the "defender" kind of knight that both things (the fighting style and the feat) use my reaction. You need to plan out your toon to avoid accidentally* taking both.

I took both. Deliberately even. Sometimes I used one. Other times I used the other. Which one was entirely situational. It worked great as long as I understood that I couldn't do both in the same round.

 

[Maxperson]

true but it is sometimes why sometimes others want to explore and try and figure out what is meant especially when they see conflicts in the claimed reason.

There have been no conflicts in our claimed reasons. At least not ones that your side didn't inappropriately make up for us and then argue against.