D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[doctorbadwolf]

It isn't? You sure?

Because, again, you have to define your external referent, don't you? Now, let's say you have the following people:
A. Able Apple, World Champion Kazoo Player
B. Baker Bobsled, World Champion Rhythmic Hand Clapper
C. Charlie Chinup, World Champion Theremin Player
D. Derek Duster, Renowned DJ
E. Eddie Electro, Greatest Novelty Vuvuzela Player
F. Frankie Fingers, Renowned Conductor of Ambient Sound Recordings

All of these people I just conjured up, A-F, are in some context (with some criteria) "good" musicians. In a certain way, maybe they are the best!

But is Frankie Fingers a "good musician" the same way that Jimmie Page is a good musician? In the same way that Beethoven was a good musician? How about John Mackey, the composer who (famously) did not study or play instruments?

What does it mean to be a good musician, anyway?

If you say that the requirement is "technical skill with an instrument" that would mean that a great composer (musician) like Mackey is excluded. Most people consider composers musicians, and someone who earns a living today composing is probably a "good musician." Kurt Cobain was a great (GREAT!) songwriter and lyricist, but you'd be hardpressed to find his innovative guitar highlights. And so on.

So yeah, "good musician" is totally subjective.




But ... they were. They were good at what they did.

There are tons of AMAZING technically proficient performers out there ... the very best of them you might know of as session artists.

But they aren't the ones people pay to see, are they? Because, again, "good" is subjective. Being technically proficient doesn't mean you're "good."

It means that you're technically proficient.

You confuse greatness with being good at something. The composer bit and the tangent about Cobain’s guitar work are sidetracks.

Nirvana is a good band because they combine things they are good at and don’t try and fail at things they aren’t good at, like having complex guitar compositions. But Kurt was absolute a proficient guitarist. He wasn’t great, but he was perfectly competent.

“Greatness” is a squishy emotional thing. Being good isn’t.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So you are saying 4e is the punk band of D&d. Lol

Oh no it’s much more the progressive rock band of D&D.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

TBH even if people just state their preference they still get attacked, so I don't see how it would matter.

I would be very surprised if you could find any example of that by anyone in this thread.

Isn't a punk band more like a happening than a provider of technically proficient musical performances?

I mean, ideally.

@lowkey13 I think that attributing any of this to a desire to show off advanced knowledge, or “win” an argument by way of advanced knowledge is both a bit unnecessarily insulting toward the people you’ve attributing it to, and simply inaccurate.

The explanation, insofar as one is needed, for why folks pursue this argument is very simple. It’s irritating when people make innacurste declarative statements about a thing one knows a lot about. That’s it. Expecting people to not try and correct such statements is wholly unreasonable.

The other motivation in this thread is to understand what objective factors create the subjective experiences described by people who think 4e powers are samey.

 

[Hussar]

Cannot speak about the particular Ranch Dressing you're referring to - but I was thinking plain old cooked, lightly salted with a heavy drizzle of olive oil of lemon juice. However some of those online recipes for broccoli are absolutely amazing! Surprised my wife with one once when she came after work and it was a winner.

@Hussar, honestly you really need to experiment man - you're missing out.

How dare you attack me for my preferences and try to force your preferences on me! These are my preferences, and you cannot possibly claim that I'm mistaken in even the slightest detail! Just because all I've ever eaten is raw broccoli without any additions whatsoever doesn't mean that I am not an expert on broccoli. That you have tried different ways of preparing broccoli, have taken the time to explore different tastes with broccoli doesn't matter at all. I hate broccoli and nothing you can say can change that at all!

See, this is what we've been trying to discuss with for the past 50 pages.

Why should anyone listen to my obviously biased and uninformed opinion about broccoli? And, frankly, how much of a jerk do I look like for insisting that you never, ever criticize my preference, 100% accept what I'm saying as gospel truth, and ignore any additional information you might have on the subject?

 

[pemerton]

Frankly, if someone's play experience is defined by the feel of the PC sheet, the resource recovery process, and the grid system used to ration movement, that makes me wonder whether the fiction was pretty weak.

So much THIS! New group, poor DM and I was a player (which was unusual for me in a D&D game).

I wonder how common this is - and not just in 4e but for D&D in general.

Or to put it another way, for how many D&D players is the most interesting part of the game manipulation of the mechanics, rather than the (ostensible) fiction of the game?

 

[Hussar]

Just like when you strike up a conversation with a fan of anything (a Belieber, a Swiftie, a Cheesehead, a Deadhead, Twihards, whatever .... ) they will constantly explain to you, at length, that your dislike, disdain, or even lack of caring about the thing they love is only due to the fact that you just don't know enough about it. C'mon ... if you don't know the full oeuvre of Tin Machine, can you really discuss David Bowie?

But, let's just unpack this bit just a little shall we? Imagine the following conversation:

A: I don't like David Bowie. All his music sounds samey to me.
B: I don't think so. I think he's got a pretty good range. Why do you think that?
A: Well, I've listened to Space Oddity and Fame and they sound so samey to me.
B: But... David Bowie's career spans decades. He's done a lot more than just that.
A: How dare you question my preferences. Why are you attacking me? David Bowie's music is samey. It's samey because it sounds samey to me. You cannot question that. You cannot gainsay that. You must take this as absolute gospel.
B: But, what about Tin Man? What about...
A: What are you? Comic Book Guy? You have to be right? Why are you arguing with me? David Bowie's music is samey. That's my opinion and you cannot say anything that might change my mind.
B: ...

Now, imagine that you've had variations of this same conversation EVERY SINGLE TIME you wanted to talk about David Bowie. Not just once in a while. Not a couple of times. But every single time. Now you might understand a tiny slice of the frustration that 4e fans have.

 

[Hussar]

I wonder how common this is - and not just in 4e but for D&D in general.

Or to put it another way, for how many D&D players is the most interesting part of the game manipulation of the mechanics, rather than the (ostensible) fiction of the game?

Oh I wouldn't think that this is rare at all. There's a pretty good reason why D&D players are looked down on by the rest of the hobby as being nothing but munchkin power gamers. Heck, there's a reason that "power gamer" is a thing. It's not exactly a rare sight. You can trace examples of it throughout the entire history of Dragon magazine.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Eric V]

But, let's just unpack this bit just a little shall we? Imagine the following conversation:

A: I don't like David Bowie. All his music sounds samey to me.
B: I don't think so. I think he's got a pretty good range. Why do you think that?
A: Well, I've listened to Space Oddity and Fame and they sound so samey to me.
B: But... David Bowie's career spans decades. He's done a lot more than just that.
A: How dare you question my preferences. Why are you attacking me? David Bowie's music is samey. It's samey because it sounds samey to me. You cannot question that. You cannot gainsay that. You must take this as absolute gospel.
B: But, what about Tin Man? What about...
A: What are you? Comic Book Guy? You have to be right? Why are you arguing with me? David Bowie's music is samey. That's my opinion and you cannot say anything that might change my mind.
B: ...

Now, imagine that you've had variations of this same conversation EVERY SINGLE TIME you wanted to talk about David Bowie. Not just once in a while. Not a couple of times. But every single time. Now you might understand a tiny slice of the frustration that 4e fans have.

Honestly, this was such a good attempt...man, I'm envious I didn't think of it. Really good, honestly.

Hope you don't mind, but I'm going to borrow it.

 

[Maxperson]

Now, imagine that you've had variations of this same conversation EVERY SINGLE TIME you wanted to talk about David Bowie. Not just once in a while. Not a couple of times. But every single time. Now you might understand a tiny slice of the frustration that 4e fans have.

That statement is false. That is not the conversation you are having here, except maybe with yourself.