D&D 5E Are proficiency swaps too strong for some races?

[ScuroNotte]

You can swap out armor or a weapon for a weapon or tool. In the example, an elf can swap a long sword for a tool as per page 8. So if a player playing an Elf martial character who already gains martial weapons through the class, can swap the 4 weapons (longsword, shortsword, shortbow, longbow) for 4 tools. Or a martial Mountain Dwarf character can exchange 4 weapons and 2 armor proficiencies for 6 tools.
Or am I over reacting.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Even easier than that kludgey fix is to bring up the loser races like this, wotc could probably even do it with a UA or errata. Waiting for a5e to fork off the the problematic base is another option

That requires PHB errata. If they were really comfortable with full-on PHB errata, do you think we would still be having official discussion of how people aren't happy with the Ranger six-plus years after launch?

Thank you. Eventually the problem will become that dragonborn no longer are the 'weakest' and now people want to bump someone else. The power creep is always there with bumping bad feats and classes that need more power. Although there is another thread here about nerfing spell versatility in the new Tasha's book. Maybe change the word nerfing to something less combative.

As has been said, IIRC in this very thread, balance is a spectrum. No spectrum will please 100% of all possible audience members, but it is entirely possible to balance a structure so that it pleases most people most of the time. (I know people break out in goddamn hives when you mention video games and balance, but FFXIV does a fantastic job of balancing classes--they often miss the mark the first time, but within two patch cycles they tend to fix nearly all the problems.)

It is possible to fix this stuff in a way that makes things better without making them OMG DRAGONBORN MASTER RACE. I mean, even the Critical Role people knew Dragonborn needed a leg up, and they gave them one--both of the Wildemount Dragonborn subraces have a bonus feature that isn't overpowered, but has some neat applications. Is it as good as Half-Elf or even the basic Elf package without subrace? Eh...maybe not, but it's decent and that's all I can really ask for.

I think the races are now an utter mess.

Agreed.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

That is excellent design! It is as it should be. They get a lot of stuff, some of which is useful whichever class you choose. All races should be designed like that.

Almost all other races are like that, but the difference for the Mountain Dwarf is that half of their features are useless to martial characters and mostly useless to casting characters.

 

[tetrasodium]

That requires PHB errata. If they were really comfortable with full-on PHB errata, do you think we would still be having official discussion of how people aren't happy with the Ranger six-plus years after launch?

As has been said, IIRC in this very thread, balance is a spectrum. No spectrum will please 100% of all possible audience members, but it is entirely possible to balance a structure so that it pleases most people most of the time. (I know people break out in goddamn hives when you mention video games and balance, but FFXIV does a fantastic job of balancing classes--they often miss the mark the first time, but within two patch cycles they tend to fix nearly all the problems.)

It is possible to fix this stuff in a way that makes things better without making them OMG DRAGONBORN MASTER RACE. I mean, even the Critical Role people knew Dragonborn needed a leg up, and they gave them one--both of the Wildemount Dragonborn subraces have a bonus feature that isn't overpowered, but has some neat applications. Is it as good as Half-Elf or even the basic Elf package without subrace? Eh...maybe not, but it's decent and that's all I can really ask for.


Agreed.

what wotc is "comfortable" with doing is irrelivant, plus...

Spoiler: ahem

In the end however it doesn't really matter if they fix the bad design of the past with errata or a .1/.5 book with new versions & other fixes or if they keep ignoring the problem & people split off to a fork like a5e unless some frction of your income depends on that choice

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Almost all other races are like that, but the difference for the Mountain Dwarf is that half of their features are useless to martial characters and mostly useless to casting characters.

So what? Some of it is usable whichever class you choose. That you cannot benefit from all of it at once is the reason they get so much stuff. But if you get to swap things so that all of it is useful at once, it obviously becomes too good.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I think the races are now an utter mess.

Agreed, as well.

 

[tetrasodium]

So what? Some of it is usable whichever class you choose. That you cannot benefit from all of it at once is the reason they get so much stuff. But if you get to swap things so that all of it is useful at once, it obviously becomes too good.

except the critical point you are skipping past is that now you can benefit from the +2/+2 +light armor prof/+medium armor prof with an array that looks like 17 14 13 14 10 8 or similar on a caster who goes around wearing +N medium armor as soon as they can buy or find it. Meanwhile the poo sandwich so many other races get becomes all the more obvious & problematic.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

So what? Some of it is usable whichever class you choose. That you cannot benefit from all of it at once is the reason they get so much stuff. But if you get to swap things so that all of it is useful at once, it obviously becomes too good.

Which is an issue when compared to other races. Hobgoblins are more martial than Mountain Dwarves, according to the lore, but get less martial racial proficiencies than Mountain Dwarves do. Hobgoblins are pretty well balanced, and this ruleset doesn't unbalance them further, but the same can't be truthfully said for Mountain Dwarves.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

except the critical point you are skipping past is that now you can benefit from the +2/+2 +light armor prof/+medium armor prof with an array that looks like 17 14 13 14 10 8 or similar on a caster who goes around wearing +N medium armor as soon as they can buy or find it. Meanwhile the poo sandwich so many other races get becomes all the more obvious & problematic.

I'm not skipping that, I agree it is bonkers now. It worked fine before Tasha though. All features not being useful at one was a feature, not a bug.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I'm not skipping that, I agree it is bonkers now. It worked fine before Tasha though. All features not being useful at one was a feature, not a bug.

It's a bug if the other races don't work that way. It's only bonkers now because the race was already broken, this system just revealed the disparity between the races.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

It's a bug if the other races don't work that way. It's only bonkers now because the race was already broken, this system just revealed the disparity between the races.

How does this make sense? Were mountain dwarfs (significantly) overpowered before? If you chose a caster to benefit from the armour, the strength bonus was mostly wasted, if you chose martial to benefit from the strength, the armour proficiency was wasted. That was good balancing. The issue only arises due the swapping, as it breaks this balance.