Are Psionics underpowered?

[Zimri]

All we are using is the PsiHB. and I don't feel underpowered in the slightest. I am very versatile and hold my own with the rest of the 7 person party. Maybe if we were lacking in some area I might feel otherwise.

 

[Chasmodai]

I've played a Psion in the Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil game before. He was an Egoist, which is a strength based character. He stocked up on all the combat powers - biofeedback, body adjusment, animal affinity, claws of the bear, etc, etc. He lasted up until level 7, and he was probably the most amazing d4 hp character I've ever played.

He was frequently the last to go down in combat, and wasn't really affected by the usual fighter banes like hold person due to a high will save. He took Speed of Thought, Resculpt Mind, Scribe Tattoos, TWF and Weapon Focus. He was the other damage dealer in the party, and was a frontliner.

When he finally died, another player was told of the d4 hp and Wizard BAB. He refused to believe it.

Point of my story? Psions are not underpowered, if you know how to play them right.

 

[Nightfall]

I'm really hoping that WotC does a good job on the Psi 3.5 book, or I might just trash the lot of them out of my games. It's fairly easy to do with Scarred Lands, since psionics isn't a major issue there anyhow. Although I must say that they add a certain "fear factor" into any combat.

Yeah unless said creature is also a Slacerian or has the psionic template and thus gets PR.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Another big problem- metapsionic feats.

The writers really didn't think them through (I'm guessing that they were written in the early stages when psions had scaling powers, but were not adjusted when the powers became non-scaling).

As it stands something like maximise costs +6pp, so a 3rd level whitefire (the first mass damage spell) would cost 11pp to cast maximised. However, the non-scaling whitefire only ever does 5d4, so you pay 11pp to do 20 damage ?!? Or you could use that 11pp to cast one of your 6th level powers like breath of the dragon 11-44, ave 23 damage? Flaming shroud against a single target for 11d6 or maximised greater concusson for 30?

The pp addition for psionics makes them worthless because the cost is too high... the cost is assigned exactly on a par with wizards (each +1 level is equivalent to +2pp) but the wizards scaling powers means that there is more bang for the buck. The 5th level wizard casts fireball and gets 5d6 damage. When he uses a 6th level slot to cast a maximised fireball it doesn't do 30, it does 60 damage.

My houserule solution was to halve all the metapsionic feat costs, and that has worked out reasonably well (along with ditching psionic combat as it is a liability and doesn't fit the flavour of my campaign... mind blast becomes a 5th level telepathy power; also I've got a power scaling variant which works OK)

Cheers

p.s. the Savant makes a good survivable character, since he'll be pumping up his CON as his primary attribute. I ran an NPC savant up to 9th level and once he had the ani-buff power and personal healing powers sorted out, and was able to get trigger power (concussion) he was always able to hold his corner up in combat.

 

[slingbld]

This has actually been killing our party's psion; spend three points to do a 2nd level power, roll d20: 6. Save DC 10.
Next round: roll a 5.
Round after that: a 4.
Round after that: a 2. That was the worst sequence of rolls possible, pretty much.

He gets burned by the low DC rolls way more often than he gets helped by a high DC roll. It's kind of sadistic to sit there and chuckle as he busts out his sweet 2nd level power and it ends up doing jack.

The one time we had a psionic class in our game we too learned the error of the D20 vs straight 10. After the 3rd encounter we invinted the house rule:
"Place your bets & Sure thing"
This gives all casters (psionic, arcane, divine) the choice to take a "10" on a DC check or go with the random D20. That way in the heat of combat, if you REALY nedd to get that spell to land you can "Place your bet" & roll the D20. Since then, we've used it quite a bit. it's been interesting. I've seen a 5th level wizard do wonders against a band of ogres with the sleep spell when he opts for the D20 & rolls 18. I've also seen the same wizard get a 3 as he burned his one and only fireball spell in a desperate attempt to do max possible damage to an oncomming horde of orcs (18 of em =D).
So I say go with either just the "10" or give them a choice on a per use basis.

 

[slingbld]

This has actually been killing our party's psion; spend three points to do a 2nd level power, roll d20: 6. Save DC 10.
Next round: roll a 5.
Round after that: a 4.
Round after that: a 2. That was the worst sequence of rolls possible, pretty much.

He gets burned by the low DC rolls way more often than he gets helped by a high DC roll. It's kind of sadistic to sit there and chuckle as he busts out his sweet 2nd level power and it ends up doing jack.

The one time we had a psionic class in our game we too learned the error of the D20 vs straight 10. After the 3rd encounter we invinted the house rule:
"Place your bets & Sure thing"
This gives all casters (psionic, arcane, divine) the choice to take a "10" on a DC check or go with the random D20. That way in the heat of combat, if you REALY nedd to get that spell to land you can "Place your bet" & roll the D20. Since then, we've used it quite a bit. it's been interesting. I've seen a 5th level wizard do wonders against a band of ogres with the sleep spell when he opts for the D20 & rolls 18. I've also seen the same wizard get a 3 as he burned his one and only fireball spell in a desperate attempt to do max possible damage to an oncomming horde of orcs (18 of em =D).
So I say go with either just the "10" or give them a choice on a per use basis.

 

[slingbld]

This has actually been killing our party's psion; spend three points to do a 2nd level power, roll d20: 6. Save DC 10.
Next round: roll a 5.
Round after that: a 4.
Round after that: a 2. That was the worst sequence of rolls possible, pretty much.

He gets burned by the low DC rolls way more often than he gets helped by a high DC roll. It's kind of sadistic to sit there and chuckle as he busts out his sweet 2nd level power and it ends up doing jack.

The one time we had a psionic class in our game we too learned the error of the D20 vs straight 10. After the 3rd encounter we invinted the house rule:
"Place your bets & Sure thing"
This gives all casters (psionic, arcane, divine) the choice to take a "10" on a DC check or go with the random D20. That way in the heat of combat, if you REALY nedd to get that spell to land you can "Place your bet" & roll the D20. Since then, we've used it quite a bit. it's been interesting. I've seen a 5th level wizard do wonders against a band of ogres with the sleep spell when he opts for the D20 & rolls 18. I've also seen the same wizard get a 3 as he burned his one and only fireball spell in a desperate attempt to do max possible damage to an oncomming horde of orcs (18 of em =D).
So I say go with either just the "10" or give them a choice on a per use basis.

 

[slingbld]

This has actually been killing our party's psion; spend three points to do a 2nd level power, roll d20: 6. Save DC 10.
Next round: roll a 5.
Round after that: a 4.
Round after that: a 2. That was the worst sequence of rolls possible, pretty much.

He gets burned by the low DC rolls way more often than he gets helped by a high DC roll. It's kind of sadistic to sit there and chuckle as he busts out his sweet 2nd level power and it ends up doing jack.

The one time we had a psionic class in our game we too learned the error of the D20 vs straight 10. After the 3rd encounter we invinted the house rule:
"Place your bets & Sure thing"
This gives all casters (psionic, arcane, divine) the choice to take a "10" on a DC check or go with the random D20. That way in the heat of combat, if you REALY nedd to get that spell to land you can "Place your bet" & roll the D20. Since then, we've used it quite a bit. it's been interesting. I've seen a 5th level wizard do wonders against a band of ogres with the sleep spell when he opts for the D20 & rolls 18. I've also seen the same wizard get a 3 as he burned his one and only fireball spell in a desperate attempt to do max possible damage to an oncomming horde of orcs (18 of em =D).
So I say go with either just the "10" or give them a choice on a per use basis.

 

[slingbld]

This has actually been killing our party's psion; spend three points to do a 2nd level power, roll d20: 6. Save DC 10.
Next round: roll a 5.
Round after that: a 4.
Round after that: a 2. That was the worst sequence of rolls possible, pretty much.

He gets burned by the low DC rolls way more often than he gets helped by a high DC roll. It's kind of sadistic to sit there and chuckle as he busts out his sweet 2nd level power and it ends up doing jack.

The one time we had a psionic class in our game we too learned the error of the D20 vs straight 10. After the 3rd encounter we invinted the house rule:
"Place your bets & Sure thing"
This gives all casters (psionic, arcane, divine) the choice to take a "10" on a DC check or go with the random D20. That way in the heat of combat, if you REALY nedd to get that spell to land you can "Place your bet" & roll the D20. Since then, we've used it quite a bit. it's been interesting. I've seen a 5th level wizard do wonders against a band of ogres with the sleep spell when he opts for the D20 & rolls 18. I've also seen the same wizard get a 3 as he burned his one and only fireball spell in a desperate attempt to do max possible damage to an oncomming horde of orcs (18 of em =D).
So I say go with either just the "10" or give them a choice on a per use basis.

 

[Spatzimaus]

The one time we had a psionic class in our game we too learned the error of the D20 vs straight 10. After the 3rd encounter we invinted the house rule:
"Place your bets & Sure thing"
This gives all casters (psionic, arcane, divine) the choice to take a "10" on a DC check or go with the random D20.

Heh, IMC we took it a step further, and introduced the concept of "Take Half".

That is, any variable effect can be replaced with the average (rounding down, of course), unless the ability is specifically prohibited. The things you can't Take Half on IMC:

> Skills under duress. As a change, we say that any opposed skill check is automatically "duress", so no Take 10 on Hide unless you've got something like Skill Mastery.
> Saving throws
> Attack rolls against a moving target (hitting a barn doesn't require a roll, you can just Take 10)
> Any "menu" options. If I tell someone to roll a percentile, they can't just choose 55.
> Caster level checks while in combat (dispels or SR).

But pretty much everything else is fair game. 9d6 Sneak Attack? No problem, it's a 27 with no rolling needed (unless you WANT to roll). Critical hits, weapon damage, Fireball, the number of HP left after a Harm... since the result always rounds down, this costs the player a bit.

Skill Focus, besides its +2, lets you Take 10 no matter what. Weapon Focus does the same for attack rolls (along with the +1 attack), the Iron Will/Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes feats do the same for saves, and Spell Focus does the same for caster level checks within one school.

So far it's worked pretty well.