D&D 5E Are ranged attacks too good in 5e?

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Alot depends here.
no its still halved under the situation where the charge works (no not on fliers) if you are closing to make your attacks and I bet your PAM makes that javelin look really silly and unless you are actually using magic javelins ... the magic weapons will generally make it worse not better
 

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James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
That is in the rules.
Yes, my statement is that intentionally depriving the party of food through no fault of their own and then saying "haha, suckers take disadvantage for the entire session because you didn't have a food conjuring spell prepared" was kind of obnoxious.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
no its still halved under the situation where the charge works (no not on fliers) if you are closing to make your attacks and I bet your PAM makes that javelin look really silly and unless you are actually using magic javelins ... the magic weapons will generally make it worse not better
It's not just the damage you deal, it's also the damage the enemy deals to your party and the damage the party deals to it.

A melee only enemy isn't doing anything if you are making it dash up to you for a turn or 2. Even if your damage is lower, your party damage as a whole isn't terrible.
 


A difference of 5 isn't going to mean that you hit all your attacks that you would have otherwise have missed either.
I'm unsure what the point you're making is? That +5 on a D20 roll isn't automatically going to win? Has anyone suggested it would?
It is always beneficial to go first rather than last in combat. Dex improves your chance to do so.

I am not sure you got my point.

1. No, going first is not always benefical, as you generally want the fireball thrower go first.

2. I spoke about a 5 point difference in initiative, not to hit. So I am confused why you speak about hitting. I also never implied any auto win?
 

no its still halved under the situation where the charge works (no not on fliers) if you are closing to make your attacks and I bet your PAM makes that javelin look really silly and unless you are actually using magic javelins ... the magic weapons will generally make it worse not better

Probably this is why charge is a feat, throwing a javelin is not.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
1. No, going first is not always benefical, as you generally want the fireball thrower go first.
No you just want to remain out of the area of the fireball (*avoid charging at that target that time) and your mage may still go earlier than you... the entire party still wants to go before the enemy so it can potentially gain the ultimate condition dead faster.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Probably this is why charge is a feat, throwing a javelin is not.
As feats go its underpowered even though still tactically advantageous for a melee combatant, I am inclined to allow one to charge and throw a javelin in an enhanced way... (increased range too for instance)
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
I'm not really sure why Charger is a Feat anyways. Charge has existed in the game since at least 1e if not longer, as a thing you can do to get into melee range faster. I thought 5e design was about getting rid of Feats to let you do things you should be able to do anyways, yet here we are.

If anyone could charge outside of people with the (optional!) Feat or14th level Tiger Totem Barbarians, that would make ranged attacks less effective, I think.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I'm not really sure why Charger is a Feat anyways. Charge has existed in the game since at least 1e if not long, as a thing you can do to get into melee range faster. I thought 5e design was about getting rid of Feats to let you do things you should be able to do anyways, yet here we are.

If anyone could charge outside of people with the (optional!) Feat or14th level Tiger Totem Barbarians, that would make ranged attacks less effective, I think.
Its the idea. For me removing charge as an everyman directly nerfed melee combatants. It is still possible enemies may be beyond the benefit of the charge that possibility is still there (including flying to high).... the javelin or other thrown are not completely useless either but the threat radius of melee combatants is increased.
 
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No you just want to remain out of the area of the fireball (*avoid charging at that target that time) and your mage may still go earlier than you... the entire party still wants to go before the enemy so it can potentially gain the ultimate condition dead faster.

That means not closing in on the enemy often enough.
 


James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
See, my issue with tracking ammo is cantrips. Eldritch Blast remains competitive with any archery build, but can be done all day long. Other than "realism", why do we need to track ammo for one ranged class and not another?

It's not like it's a big deal, 80 arrows weighs 4 lbs., and money is trivial in a 5e game that doesn't offer something to do with it- but ever since 4e, it always struck me as kind of odd. The 4e Ranger has to track arrows and the 4e Sorcerer does not...because Martial power source is just more limited?
 

Horwath

Hero
See, my issue with tracking ammo is cantrips. Eldritch Blast remains competitive with any archery build, but can be done all day long. Other than "realism", why do we need to track ammo for one ranged class and not another?

It's not like it's a big deal, 80 arrows weighs 4 lbs., and money is trivial in a 5e game that doesn't offer something to do with it- but ever since 4e, it always struck me as kind of odd. The 4e Ranger has to track arrows and the 4e Sorcerer does not...because Martial power source is just more limited?
because one is magic and the other one is not.


But, it boils down how much detail do you want to keep.

some people ignore arrows, some ignore material spell components if they are not expensive.

some people ignore food and water supplies.
 

I've been playing around with trying to design a Fighter based on unlimited use maneuvers...meaning, abilities that can be used situationally or with some kind of risk:reward mechanic, instead of X times/rest...but really so many of the good ideas (if not the best implementation) are already in feats. Charger, Mobility, Shield Master, Sentinel, Mage Slayer, etc....

So I guess all the feats that Fighters get can contribute to the idea, except that those things compete with ASIs, at least for a while.

So maybe a new, one line subclass is:

Warrior
Whenever you get a new subclass feature (at 3, 7, 10, 15, and 18) pick from Charger, Mobility, Shield Master, Grappler, Mage Slayer, Sentinel, Alert, and Dual Wielder.

By level 20 you'd have quite a collection of cool things you can do.

I'd happily play that subclass.
 


James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
Oh no, I totally agree, even though the Warlock has neat toys, I couldn't stand to play one. My roommate tried a Warlock once, and after one session, he retired the character, as, without regular rests, he just spammed EB for the majority of the session. I know it gets extra utility at higher levels, but at low levels at least, it's snooze inducing.
 

I am not sure you got my point.

1. No, going first is not always benefical, as you generally want the fireball thrower go first.
The fireball thrower also wants to go before the monsters. As long as the fighter isn't running in to where they want to drop it however, going before the fireball thrower doesn't have a downside. Going before the monsters is the important thing, and the better your bonus, the better the chance you have of doing that.

2. I spoke about a 5 point difference in initiative, not to hit. So I am confused why you speak about hitting. I also never implied any auto win?
I believe that you stated that a 5 point difference in initiative didn't mean you would automatically win it. I pointed out that a 5 point difference in attack rolls didn't mean you would automatically hit either, yet people still think a higher attack bonus is better than a low one.
 

I get the feeling you're underestimating the value of being able to use maneuvers at range though.

No, Im saying while you're off using manouvers at range, the casters are getting beat down.

You're not taking damage for the party. Your d10 hit dice, higher AC, and defensive buffs are not being used effectively.

As a martial, you want the monsters attacking you. You want them grouping in to fight you, and you want to be dictating the flow of the battlefield.
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
I was able to protect the casters just fine. I'd use Goading Attack to lure them towards me (though I eventually switched to Demoralizing Attack since the DM seemed loath to make his monsters move), or Maneuvering Attack so they could get away from monsters. I wasn't happy with the temps handed out by rally at low levels, so I picked up Inspiring Leader as my third feat to grant temps before just about any fight.

If I won initiative, I would use Trip Attack to prevent enemies from being able to close, though I eventually swapped that out as well since we started fighting really big monsters towards the later stages of Storm King's Thunder.

Plus, since I had more hit points, I would usually stand between the monsters and the casters anyways. If they wanted to go around me, that was fine, but I even took Martial Adept for another superiority die and more maneuvers.

It wasn't until I ran out of dice that I was reduced to being a damage dealer. Which is never a bad thing to be either- a dead enemy isn't a threat to anyone. I should point out in AL groups I was in, almost every caster has really great defenses anyways- Cleric is a commonly taken class, and the few Wizards always took shield so I never needed to do more than this.

EDIT: and monsters didn't want to stand near the Clerics anyways once they got Spirit Guardians.
 

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