Are shifters too powerful?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well no, I also understand that part as well, but I chose to speak about shifting generally since that is how the question was asked.

The razorclaw shifter adds an additional layer to the discussion, since his shifting ability also provides a set of weapons. Of course there are many solutions to this, the simplest being to carry a short sword. But that could conflict with the concept. You could choose to take a level of monk or to take the Improved Unarmed Strike feat to approximate, or you could choose the Phychic Warrior route.

Truthfully, however, if your concept is a man-feline fighter who always uses his claws and never any other weapon, than a shifter is not really a good fit. You can make it work, but it's not going to be perfect unless you play a race that actually has permanent, honest to goodness "natural weapon" claws.

Or a psychic warrior, which would be my preferred route, especially considering all the claw-enhancing powers available.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

By 10th level you can shift 4 times a day for many rounds. That should be adequate. For weretouched master go Tiger or Bear.

But make sure you see the latest Eberron errata on that! Very important!

 

[Crimson_Manticore]

I had not really looked at this limitation of the Shifters, and now have a shifter in my game.

Had a thought, how unbalanced would the following be:

Feat: Call of the Ancestors [Shifter] {or some other cool name }
You have learned to focus on bringing out the ancestral abilities within you.
Benefit: Your shifts per day is equal to your WILL save. You do not gain bonus shifts for having additional feats.
Normal: You gain shifts per day.... {per RAW.. damn, sometimes I hate posting from work }


I hope this makes as much sence as it did to me this morning....

Shifting itself isn’t the problem. Building a character that depends exclusively on an ability that will not be available every encounter is the problem. To my mind, shifting as it stands right now is a fun, well-balanced, and interesting ability. Allowing a character to shift every encounter without significant cost cheapens and dulls the ability IMO.

As a thought exercise, consider this feat:

I’m a Bad Mo-Fo Man-Beast
Prereq: Shifter, Base Will +4 or greater
Benefit: You gain a permanent +2 increase in your strength score and you gain permanent claws that can be used as natural weapons with a base damage of 1d4/1d4.
Normal: You are a wuss, just like the rest of us.

Is this feat overpowered? Well, in the sense that it is clearly more powerful than most other feats, I would say yes, it is over powered. Will it break your game? Probably not, but it is still a feat that most every fighter type would take, even if they didn’t care about the claws. What does this have to do with shifting? I assert that this feat is roughly equal to any feat that will effectively allow you to shift in every encounter. Remember, shifting is a free action. That means that there is no “cost” to shift. If you have enough shifts per day to shift in every encounter, then it is effectively the same as being permanently shifted.

I do not believe that being able to shift in every encounter is game-breaking, but it certainly should cost more than one feat.

As to the specific question of building a character around a natural weapon claw fighter concept, I reiterate the assertion that a shifter is not the best fit. If you intend to specialize in a weapon to the exclusion of all others, then you should choose a weapon that will be available to you in every encounter. There are other ways to get claw attacks besides shifting. If being a claw fighter exclusively is your concept, then shifter is not the best choice. Mucking around with the shifter and trying to find a way to shift every encounter is not the best solution to the problem.

As to the question of how claw damage stacks, the RAW probably does not allow the “Claws of the Beast” psionic power to “stack” damage on top of existing claws. My understanding is that the psionic claws would replace any existing claws. I am unfamiliar with the wording of the Improved Natural Attack feat, but my guess is that it would indeed increase the damage of both the psionic claws and the shifter claws. I have no idea how the Warshaper ability would interact with the psionic claws. Someone said that you had to be shifting for the Warshaper ability to work. If that is true, it probably would not work with the psionic claws. Someone more knowledgeable in this may be able to confirm or deny.

Lastly, consider that the psionic claws only scale in damage with your manifester level. Thus, if you wanted to go for the maximum claw damage, you probably want to stick with a strait, single-class Psychic Warrior. Also, the benefit of the “Claws of the Beast” duration (1 hour per level) cannot be overstated. It’s a much better option than relying on shifting for your claws.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Makes sense..

I had some more time to think about it, and agree that the current times per day is a pretty decent deal.... my games usually have 4 to 5 combat encounters in a single day, so a Shifter will need to either take a couple of feats {that they want already} to be able to use the ability in every combat.

Thanks for the reminder

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

Here's an option:

Aspect of Were (Shifter)
Your body is changed, permanently shifted into a more bestial aspect.
Prerequisites: Shifter, any "X Elite" feat.
Benefit: Your secondary shifter characteristic for which you have the appropriate "Elite" feat (the claws of a razorclaw elite, the wings of a swiftwing elite) are always active.

Special: Your visage and form becomes more bestial, as does your scent; you gain a +1 bonus on Handle Animal and Survival checks, but take a -1 penalty on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and similar skills as determined by the DM.

The Special could probably go; it was just an afterthought.

 

[Crimson_Manticore]

Here's an option:

Aspect of Were (Shifter)
Your body is changed, permanently shifted into a more bestial aspect.
Prerequisites: Shifter, any "X Elite" feat.
Benefit: Your secondary shifter characteristic for which you have the appropriate "Elite" feat (the claws of a razorclaw elite, the wings of a swiftwing elite) are always active.

Special: Your visage and form becomes more bestial, as does your scent; you gain a +1 bonus on Handle Animal and Survival checks, but take a -1 penalty on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and similar skills as determined by the DM.

The Special could probably go; it was just an afterthought.

That seems reasonable. It certainly seems to be more in line with the power of most other feats.

In fact, when I look at the benefits of shifting, I look at it like this: You gain a +2 bonus to an ability score and the use of a feat for a few rounds once or twice a day. That’s pretty much the sum of it in terms of how powerful shifting is.

 

[UltimaGabe]

But make sure you see the latest Eberron errata on that! Very important!

All I have to say is Thank Pelor for that. Now, the class isn't horribly broken, and all of the choices are actually somewhat balanced with each other. I mean, without that Errata, why the heck would anyone choose the Wererat?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

All I have to say is Thank Pelor for that. Now, the class isn't horribly broken, and all of the choices are actually somewhat balanced with each other. I mean, without that Errata, why the heck would anyone choose the Wererat?

Style.

 

[Diirk]

But make sure you see the latest Eberron errata on that! Very important!

Oh good, they finally fixed it up a bit; that's always been my main gripe about the class. Its still not perfect, however. While I like what they did with Weretouched III, I dislike what they did to Alternate Form. 2 uses of shifting to turn into an animal ?!?! And its gone back to the old replacement style of physical stats, which makes it less of an advantage than it could otherwise be; especially if you're giving up multiple 20+ str 2h attacks for a single bite/gore etc. And I feel sorry for those rats, still. Maybe they should have let them become horrid rats or something.

 

[Ahrimon]

I do not believe that being able to shift in every encounter is game-breaking, but it certainly should cost more than one feat.

I'm not really looking for something in line with just taking one feat and presto I can shift all day every day. I'm willing to put several levels and a couple of feats behind being able to shift multiple times.

As to the specific question of building a character around a natural weapon claw fighter concept, I reiterate the assertion that a shifter is not the best fit.

If it's just around a character with claws, I could agree with you, but the other half of the character concept is to deal as much damage with those claws as possible. Being a shifter gives me access to several extra options to increase my damage. Weretouched master 1 (+1 step), Warshaper 1 (+1 step, move action), the shifting rage feat (+2 steps). Add that to the +1 step from improved natural attack and I'm up to 4d6 base damage. But all of those increases don't do anything if I can't shift for that encounter. So I'm trying to tackle the first step in creating this character. Once I can get the number of shifts per day up then I can start working on damage.

Aspect of Were (Shifter)
Your body is changed, permanently shifted into a more bestial aspect.
Prerequisites: Shifter, any "X Elite" feat.
Benefit: Your secondary shifter characteristic for which you have the appropriate "Elite" feat (the claws of a razorclaw elite, the wings of a swiftwing elite) are always active.

Special: Your visage and form becomes more bestial, as does your scent; you gain a +1 bonus on Handle Animal and Survival checks, but take a -1 penalty on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and similar skills as determined by the DM.

The Special could probably go; it was just an afterthought.

I thought about something like this. I was thinking of something along the lines of a minor shift feat. Something that gave you access to the secondary effects of shifting, but not the ability increase. Make it usable a number of times a day equal to your normal shifting and you've just double the number of times you can have access to your physical changes. I haven't really put any numbers to it though. Plus it doesn't really do me any good since it's not already in the rules. *shrug* Fun to brainstorm though.

Ahrimon