Are shifters too powerful?

[Crimson_Manticore]

If it's just around a character with claws, I could agree with you, but the other half of the character concept is to deal as much damage with those claws as possible. Being a shifter gives me access to several extra options to increase my damage. Weretouched master 1 (+1 step), Warshaper 1 (+1 step, move action), the shifting rage feat (+2 steps). Add that to the +1 step from improved natural attack and I'm up to 4d6 base damage. But all of those increases don't do anything if I can't shift for that encounter. So I'm trying to tackle the first step in creating this character. Once I can get the number of shifts per day up then I can start working on damage.

Although I admit to being unfamiliar with the damage increase methods you mention, I would be surprised if a single classed Psychic Warrior could not match or exceed the claw damage at any given level. Then when you add to that all the buffs that are available to a Psychic Warrior, including stat boosters and claw enhancements, it seems hard to beat. Whichever way you choose, I wish you lots of luck and loads of fun. Thanks for allowing me to discuss these things with you.

 

[ohGr]

...the shifting rage feat (+2 steps).

Shifter Savagery. Read the Special line, though; the damage increase from Shifter Savagery does not stack with any other effect that increases damage, such as Improved Natural Attack. The only exception is spells or abilities that increase your size, such as enlarge person, and, hence, your damage.

 

[KarinsDad]

I personally think that shifting claw damage is more potent than it appears on the surface.

Compare it to two weapon fighting, no other feats, say a 50% chance to hit with a single weapon and a 16 Strength (no magic).

(D4+4 * 55% + D4+4 * 55%) * 1.05 (critical chance) = 7.5075

(D8+3 * 40% + D6+3 * 40%) * 1.10 (critical chance) = 6.16

Two weapon fighting required a feat, but does less average damage per round. Granted, damage reduction is less of a problem for two weapon fighting and you can two weapon fight all day long, but shifting is not weak.

 

[Seeten]

Could you calculate that out to show the 5th encounter for that day, KD? Say, the one where the Shifter is out of Claw shifts, but the TWF guy is still using both weapons?

 

[Diirk]

I personally think that shifting claw damage is more potent than it appears on the surface.

Compare it to two weapon fighting, no other feats, say a 50% chance to hit with a single weapon and a 16 Strength (no magic).

(D4+4 * 55% + D4+4 * 55%) * 1.05 (critical chance) = 7.5075

(D8+3 * 40% + D6+3 * 40%) * 1.10 (critical chance) = 6.16

Two weapon fighting required a feat, but does less average damage per round. Granted, damage reduction is less of a problem for two weapon fighting and you can two weapon fight all day long, but shifting is not weak.

Remember that you never get iterative attacks with claws, whereas you do with TWF, so in reality your damage is going to plummet compared to TWF at BAB 6+. And TWF is generally considered a weak fighting style, too.

So yes, shifting does give you bonuses, but more so at higher levels than lower levels. And given the restrictions in use, it damn well should.

 

[Crimson_Manticore]

I personally think that shifting claw damage is more potent than it appears on the surface.

Compare it to two weapon fighting, no other feats, say a 50% chance to hit with a single weapon and a 16 Strength (no magic).

(D4+4 * 55% + D4+4 * 55%) * 1.05 (critical chance) = 7.5075

(D8+3 * 40% + D6+3 * 40%) * 1.10 (critical chance) = 6.16

Two weapon fighting required a feat, but does less average damage per round. Granted, damage reduction is less of a problem for two weapon fighting and you can two weapon fight all day long, but shifting is not weak.

Don’t forget that natural weapon fighters do not get iterative attacks with higher BAB. This is probably why there are methods to increase base claw damage to fairly high levels.

Edit: Curses again! I have to learn to type faster!

 

[KarinsDad]

Could you calculate that out to show the 5th encounter for that day, KD? Say, the one where the Shifter is out of Claw shifts, but the TWF guy is still using both weapons?

I'll do that when you calculate the 1st encounter for that day where the TWF guy has lost at least one weapon and possibly both to either Sunders or Disarms.

If your DM does not play his NPCs to their potential, it is not my problem.

 

[Diirk]

I'll do that when you calculate the 1st encounter for that day where the TWF guy has lost at least one weapon and possibly both to either Sunders or Disarms.

Ok,

(1d8+4 * 50%) * 1.1 = 4.675
or at 6th, (1d8+4 * 50% + 1d8+4 * 25%) * 1.1 = 7.0125

However (and this is a big one), to have 4 shifts per day, the shifter has spent 6 feats. As compared to above TWF guys 1-2 feat(s). And some of those 6 feats are really quite crappy ones. So to be fair we'd have to give the TWF guy Weapon Focus, (possibly spec if he's a fighter), improved crit, power attack, and a bunch of others.

Longsword 2handed with 1 point of power attack: (1d8+6 * 50%) * 1.1 = 5.1975
2 points power attack: (1d8+8 * 40%) * 1.1 = 5.5
etc...

If you want to compare the average shifter to the average fighter, then the shifter can shift 1-2 times a day for probably 5-8 and enjoy a mild benefit, while the average fighter will have staying power over any fights of the day.

If you want to compare the dedicated shifter to the dedicated fighter, then the shifter can get pretty good but its likely a well built fighter type can be built better, with no 4/day limit.

If I were to build a shifter, I'd probably use weapons primarly, with a secondary bite. I'd also focus on utility type enhancements such as possibly beasthide (elite) for 2(4) natural armour, (greater) shifter defense for DR 2(4)/silver, etc

 

[devrimk]

Is it possible Warshaper's Morphic Weapons can be use with Imp. Two Weapon Fighting ?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Is it possible Warshaper's Morphic Weapons can be use with Imp. Two Weapon Fighting ?

Unless I'm mistaken, they're natural weapons, and therefore don't follow two-weapon fighting rules.