Are +skill items overpowered?

[Mordeth]

I was talking with a friend about getting a +10 use magic device item for the game that we are in. He says that that would be game unbalancing. I am not sure why. There is a monk in our game too that has +40 to his jump check from items, and he says thats ok.

Has anyone ever seen that +skill items are overpowered?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

It depends. If it's a ridiculously high bonus, they are of course.

On the other hand, I don't think so: we have Items that improve your Saves, your AC or your Ability Scores. These are stats you use almost all the time. But a skill is something very special: you use your AC and Saves, and of course your abilities, almost every round in combat, and the abilities are used all the time, but a skill bonus is only used when using that very skill. Also, skill bonuses are usually quite high to begin with (they beat ability modifiers and saves most of the time, especially at higher levels). So the bonuses a magic item grats you on your skill should obiously be higher.

 

[Crothian]

It more depends on the skill and the game. +40 to jump is nice, but unless it's at a really low level shouldn't be that bad. Now, +30 to intimidate might be tough for a DM becasue even if they roll a 2 they intimidate a 22nd level person.

 

[Mordeth]

I agree with that. +30 should be epic levels only....

 

[Crothian]

I agree with that. +30 should be epic levels only....

Wel, +31 is. But even if you lower it to +30, then +29 is still pretty darn good.

I would limit the bonuses to multiple's of five and anything up to +20 is normal. However, I think the reason they went to +30 is becasue of Jump.

 

[rendarkin]

"Has anyone ever seen that +skill items are overpowered?"

I don't think that +skill items are necessarily overpowered. Like many, I agree that they are far too CHEAP (multiplying the cost x10 works for me, but others folks have their preferred multiplier - I've got players that would pay 20,000 gp for a +10 to a chosen skill, that's about the same cost at a +2 weapon).

It depends on the skill in question and the amount of the plus, right?

My concern is when you get more bonuses then your base ability; then its the magic item working and not the character class. If you've got 10 ranks in tumble and you get a belt of +30 tumble/move silent/etc., why bother being a rogue? Anyone could wear the belt instead. Does a fighter with a BAB +5 ever get a sword with a +15 bonus to attack rolls? And do you want wizards with +10 concentration or +10 spellcraft?

And with skills that you can take 20, those bonuses go a far way. You get an item giving you a +10 or +20 to Search and you're a rogue, as long as you have time to careful searches, you're never going to miss anything, so what's the point of using the Search skill in this case?

Just some thoughts,
-Rendarkin

 

[Plane Sailing]

Personally I think many of the skill items are "unbalanced" in the sense that they can invalidate the skill choices that characters have made. The Monk who invests precious skill points in hide and move silently, only to find the wizard picks up or makes cheap cloak and boots that makes him better.

Saves and BAB increase on a fixed schedule depending on your class. Skills are chosen carefully be PC's, and yet can be overshadowed very quickly by skill bonus items.

Most of the skill bonus items that I can think of are +10, the ring of jumping is extraordinarily high (maybe its the reason why you've got to be 12th level to make rings?) but big jumps are not exactly game-breaking.

A +10 to magic item use check though... that is the equivalent of being 10 levels higher when it comes to using magic items and it would give a rogue who had it unprecedented ability to use pretty much any kind of item he found. I can see why the DM didn't allow this.

Cheers

 

[Victim]

With high bonuses, +skill items overwhelm the character's innate abilities. I think that this problem is especially pronounced with skills because usually no other factors besides the skill bonus come into play.

For example, if you give a commoner a +5 sword, he gains some combat ability. However, that addition power is checked by many things. He lacks the feats for an effective fighting style. He can't use many feats, even if he took them, because he has +0 base attack. He doesn't have multiple attacks, again because his base attack is zero. He still has no HP or AC, so he dies quickly. So, for combat purposes, one good item added on to very marginal training still produces a marginal combatant.

However, with skills, there are no secondary factors. A guy with 1 rank and a +30 item isn't that far behind a guy 31 ranks - the guy with 31 ranks might have a higher stat mod and could have synergy bonuses to give him an advantage.

Powerful skill items allow for untrained characters to perform amazing feats, and for trained characters to have incredible opposed checks - unless of course the enemy also has +skill items. Quite frankly, I don't think we need another area for characters to have a magical arms race.

This is a bit off topic, but in my game, I ruled that A) characters need to have 1/2 the bonus of the item in ranks, as per boots of elvenkind and B) an item can't more than double your existing skill bonus. A guy with +6 tumble who puts on the belt of acrobatics +30 only gets +6 from the item.

 

[rendarkin]

With high bonuses, +skill items overwhelm the character's innate abilities. I think that this problem is especially pronounced with skills because usually no other factors besides the skill bonus come into play.

I couldn't agree more.

Powerful skill items allow for untrained characters to perform amazing feats, and for trained characters to have incredible opposed checks - unless of course the enemy also has +skill items. Quite frankly, I don't think we need another area for characters to have a magical arms race.

I agree.

This is a bit off topic, but in my game, I ruled that A) characters need to have 1/2 the bonus of the item in ranks, as per boots of elvenkind and B) an item can't more than double your existing skill bonus. A guy with +6 tumble who puts on the belt of acrobatics +30 only gets +6 from the item.

Interesting. I wouldn't use the limit of "the item can only grant as much as you have" for my game, because no other item works that way, but it's neat. The fix for skill-items in my game is:

1) Item creator must have as many caster levels as the bonus to provide (+20 skill item takes 20th-level spellcaster to make)

2) Item creature must HAVE as many ranks as the bonus will provide or use a piece of a creature with as many ranks as the bonus will provide. (+20 to Hide skill item requires the cooperation of a character with 20 ranks of Hide)

3) Cost increases to bonus squared times 200 gp.
(thus, a +5 item is 5,000 gp, a +10 is 20,000 gp, a +15 is 45,000 gp and a +20 is 80,000 gp). This reduces the "arms race" issue and makes them valuable items rather than obnoxious freebies ("oooh, for 2,000 gold I'll add +10 to my move silently with boots of elvenkind. Sure, that's more useful than a +1 dagger!")

4) Item increments are typically +5 and typically not higher than +20.

5) Like all items, I may give a +100% to cost for obnoxiously-useful skills in combat (tumble, concentration, hide, spot). This I haven't decided for sure.

 

[rendarkin]

A +10 to magic item use check though...

Use Magic Item booster! Ugh! Never even thought of that one. That's another reason that *cheap* skill items are too much. Unlike attack rolls and saving throws (which are based off the power of your adversary), a LOT of skills aren't scaled; the non-opposed skills are just based off of set DCs, usually between 15 and 30. Items that give +10, +20, or +30 against set DCs may as well just say that it's an automatic success (even a +10 for the rogue's Use Magic Item is going to practically guarantee success a lot of the time at low level; at +20, forget it, you will always emulate anything).