Are Sorcerers really that bad?
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(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
I am of the opinion that the wizard is superior.
Both classes can have spells that target multiple saving throws, but wizards can do the same while using different elements and have adequate defenses as well.
I like how a wizard can prepare a still gaseous form spell, which is great when you're being grappled by a monk that has had a silence spell cast on it or a nightcrawler is trying to swallow you - while you're trapped by a dimensional anchor spell. In such a situation, the sorcerer is more likely to be helpless, seeing how he or she didn't get bonus feats to spend on metamagic and may have relied solely on the more generally useful dimension door spell to escape.
A wizard's high Int score is a bonus. It lets you flesh out your character more - you could have been a private investigator, a primitive tribesman or a crook before you picked up magic (and not have to multiclass). Or you can power game like me and put those points into cross-class ranks in Escape Artist and Tumble. You know you want to. (Alright, my current Eberron wizard was a tribesman and has a few ranks in Craft (weaponsmithing) and Survival.)
The sorcerer's high Charisma score isn't that useful due to a limited amount of social skills - just Bluff and maybe Intimidate, IIRC. Furthermore, you have to spend more money on that combined cloak of Charisma + cloak of resistance, and making that item costs a feat - and you don't get bonus feats.
Furthermore, a sorcerer's spontaneous metamagic just isn't that useful, IMO. You can't just sit there for a full round unless the DM is soft-balling you.
I do find sorcerers more flavorful, however.
Both classes can have spells that target multiple saving throws, but wizards can do the same while using different elements and have adequate defenses as well.
I like how a wizard can prepare a still gaseous form spell, which is great when you're being grappled by a monk that has had a silence spell cast on it or a nightcrawler is trying to swallow you - while you're trapped by a dimensional anchor spell. In such a situation, the sorcerer is more likely to be helpless, seeing how he or she didn't get bonus feats to spend on metamagic and may have relied solely on the more generally useful dimension door spell to escape.
A wizard's high Int score is a bonus. It lets you flesh out your character more - you could have been a private investigator, a primitive tribesman or a crook before you picked up magic (and not have to multiclass). Or you can power game like me and put those points into cross-class ranks in Escape Artist and Tumble. You know you want to. (Alright, my current Eberron wizard was a tribesman and has a few ranks in Craft (weaponsmithing) and Survival.)
The sorcerer's high Charisma score isn't that useful due to a limited amount of social skills - just Bluff and maybe Intimidate, IIRC. Furthermore, you have to spend more money on that combined cloak of Charisma + cloak of resistance, and making that item costs a feat - and you don't get bonus feats.
Furthermore, a sorcerer's spontaneous metamagic just isn't that useful, IMO. You can't just sit there for a full round unless the DM is soft-balling you.
I do find sorcerers more flavorful, however.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
I think there is a situational issue worth mentioning: Many tough encounters become complete cakewalks if the entire party party is Invisible, Flying, or both(!).
There is nothing like watching the evil party's cleric evaporate under a hail of attacks before the bad guys take a single action.
Yes, I have used this tactic as a Wizard by using tons of slots and knowing exactly what we were going to fight that day. But a middling level Sorceror can easily just decide on the spur of the moment to turn the whole party into Invisible Flying superheroic monster slayers.
I personally prefer Wizards. But I would not feel sorry for a Sorceror. They can rock.
There is nothing like watching the evil party's cleric evaporate under a hail of attacks before the bad guys take a single action.
Yes, I have used this tactic as a Wizard by using tons of slots and knowing exactly what we were going to fight that day. But a middling level Sorceror can easily just decide on the spur of the moment to turn the whole party into Invisible Flying superheroic monster slayers.
I personally prefer Wizards. But I would not feel sorry for a Sorceror. They can rock.
[/QUOTE]
IMX, which may vary from yours, the wiz is better served and more often optsto go with with the item feats for his choices and the sor heads for the metamagic.
As for your example? IIRC my sorcerer did opt for gaseous form and the gnomish guy had it in a wand, so I don't see that the sor would have not opted for the gaseous form as a likely case, and gaseous form and dimension door serve very different purposes so i don't see this as a likely "either/or."
but, yes, when you choose both sides spells to make one perfect for the situation and the other wrong, the example works out.
now, if, as i mentioned earlier, the Gm, restricts downtime activities to "letting the mage make items and buff his spellbook" and doesn't let the other character profit from their abilities, this can shift to heavily favor the wiz.
My Gm didn't, and my guy made money and contacts and friends that helped out a lot, while the mage did his spellbooks and items. I thought it a reasonable trade, even tho the mage player had some definitely dull periods watching me roleplay while his character huddled over his books and items.
sorcerer metamagic is a full round action, which means its just as "cannot sit there" risky under hardball Gms as drawing a scroll and reading it... ie in both cases thats all you do, you get a 5' move max, and it goes off right now, not like "1 round casting time spells" which cast on and dont go off until your next turn comes 'round.
if thats not what you meant, and you think being limited to a 5' step only is the serious problem except for softball GMs... then i apologize for the misunderstanding.
from the 3.5 srd:
" If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.)"
never one to argue with an opinion but i will make a few comments about your reasons.(Psi)SeveredHead said:
having spells and having spells ready to be cast are two different things.(Psi)SeveredHead said:
well, both the sorcerers i mentioned above had still and silent rather early in their career and metamagic feats were their most popular choices. An extra feat every five levels for metamagic doesn't come close to offsetting the gain for spontaneous metamagic the sor has.(Psi)SeveredHead said:
IMX, which may vary from yours, the wiz is better served and more often optsto go with with the item feats for his choices and the sor heads for the metamagic.
As for your example? IIRC my sorcerer did opt for gaseous form and the gnomish guy had it in a wand, so I don't see that the sor would have not opted for the gaseous form as a likely case, and gaseous form and dimension door serve very different purposes so i don't see this as a likely "either/or."
but, yes, when you choose both sides spells to make one perfect for the situation and the other wrong, the example works out.
one of the better examples of one of the things the wiz has going for him. he gets more skills. But both sides have things going for them and against them. I know in my sorcerer play i got a lot of hay out opf his good social abilities and ranks cross-class into perform helped a lot too.(Psi)SeveredHead said:
My experience says otherwise. here is the key... social skills are often OPPOSED ROLLS and for most people those opposition skills are not in-class, which tends to mean a few ranks cross-class plus a high attribute is enough to let you win those checks.(Psi)SeveredHead said:
which is not so bad as it seems, the money thing, if while the wizard is spending money to make items your gm is allowing your character to spend his time making money using your skills or your spells.(Psi)SeveredHead said:
now, if, as i mentioned earlier, the Gm, restricts downtime activities to "letting the mage make items and buff his spellbook" and doesn't let the other character profit from their abilities, this can shift to heavily favor the wiz.
My Gm didn't, and my guy made money and contacts and friends that helped out a lot, while the mage did his spellbooks and items. I thought it a reasonable trade, even tho the mage player had some definitely dull periods watching me roleplay while his character huddled over his books and items.
and i remain amazed that after all this time the misconception still remains even tho you seem very knowledgable.(Psi)SeveredHead said:
sorcerer metamagic is a full round action, which means its just as "cannot sit there" risky under hardball Gms as drawing a scroll and reading it... ie in both cases thats all you do, you get a 5' move max, and it goes off right now, not like "1 round casting time spells" which cast on and dont go off until your next turn comes 'round.
if thats not what you meant, and you think being limited to a 5' step only is the serious problem except for softball GMs... then i apologize for the misunderstanding.
from the 3.5 srd:
" If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.)"
Mercule
Adventurer
wuyanei said:
In a non-spell point system, I prefer sorcerers. Mainly because the fire-and-forget system annoys me, and sorcerers mitigate that, to an extent. I think, statistically, the sorcerer is a bit weaker than a well-played wizard. The difference is that I can play a sorcerer very well much easier than I can play a wizard even passibly.
billd91
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Graf said:
That much weaker? No. Stronger in some areas, weaker in others. Generally a wash.
I like sorcerers for what they do to a point. But like so many other things in 3.5, too much class balance is based on nothing but dungeon-crawling, combat oriented play. I'd throw the sorcerer a bone for making the class more rounded. They tend to fall behind on skill points compared to a wizard. I'd strongly consider giving them 4 skill points per level instead of 2.
Merlion
First Post
Sorcerers are, overall, a little behind the other primary spellcasters. They gain the seeming flexibility of spontaneous casting, but this is made up for or more than made up for by their loss of pretty much the whole rest of their versatility mainly due to their overly-limited spells known.
Now yea, in a low-wealth campaign with an above average number of encounters per day, the Sorcerer will do better. But in a baseline game, the only real advantage of a Sorcerer over a Wizard is that they have a lot more spell slots...which in general is mitagated by the fact that they dont get any more actions per round than anyone else...and the ability to have spontaneous access to all the spells they know...which is largely mitagated by the fact that they know hardly any spells, especially of their highest levels. Another big drawback is lag. It takes 3 or 4 or more levels for a Sorcerer to have access to say 3 spells of a given level, whereas a Wizard has a minimum of 4 spells of a given level, the level after he gains access to them.
Basically, they wanted to include a non-preparation caster and so they decided to throw in a non-preparing Wizard. Which is what the Sorcerer is, basically...a Wizard variant. However, a class with no class features but spells, needs to really have some spells, which Sorcerers sadly dont. They arent hideously underpowered, but mechanically, in a baseline game there is little reason to pick Sor over Wiz.
Also flavour wise I feel they are a bit redundant. Basically one is just the Learned Mage, the other is the Born Mage. Identical spell lists. And basically no other class abilities.
If I were to use the Sorcerer it would be some sort of bloodline variant thing with a tailored spell list and some themed abilities to make it both thematically distinct and mechanically on par with the Wizard.
And as far as metamagic...well yea Sorcerers can use metamagic spontaneously, but they pay for it.
More importantly, standard D&D metmagic largely sucks for everyone, because you have to pay to many times for it. The only really worthwhile core metamagic feats are Empower and Quicken. Empower is nice for Sorcerers (but only really for the stereotypical machine gun damage sorcerer), and they arent allowed to use Quicken.
Of course a lot of people like Sorcerers with Silent Spell to counter Silence...but how often do you really encounter that?
Overall both the Sorcerer class and metamagic feats were good ideas that didnt get executed all that well.
Now yea, in a low-wealth campaign with an above average number of encounters per day, the Sorcerer will do better. But in a baseline game, the only real advantage of a Sorcerer over a Wizard is that they have a lot more spell slots...which in general is mitagated by the fact that they dont get any more actions per round than anyone else...and the ability to have spontaneous access to all the spells they know...which is largely mitagated by the fact that they know hardly any spells, especially of their highest levels. Another big drawback is lag. It takes 3 or 4 or more levels for a Sorcerer to have access to say 3 spells of a given level, whereas a Wizard has a minimum of 4 spells of a given level, the level after he gains access to them.
Basically, they wanted to include a non-preparation caster and so they decided to throw in a non-preparing Wizard. Which is what the Sorcerer is, basically...a Wizard variant. However, a class with no class features but spells, needs to really have some spells, which Sorcerers sadly dont. They arent hideously underpowered, but mechanically, in a baseline game there is little reason to pick Sor over Wiz.
Also flavour wise I feel they are a bit redundant. Basically one is just the Learned Mage, the other is the Born Mage. Identical spell lists. And basically no other class abilities.
If I were to use the Sorcerer it would be some sort of bloodline variant thing with a tailored spell list and some themed abilities to make it both thematically distinct and mechanically on par with the Wizard.
And as far as metamagic...well yea Sorcerers can use metamagic spontaneously, but they pay for it.
More importantly, standard D&D metmagic largely sucks for everyone, because you have to pay to many times for it. The only really worthwhile core metamagic feats are Empower and Quicken. Empower is nice for Sorcerers (but only really for the stereotypical machine gun damage sorcerer), and they arent allowed to use Quicken.
Of course a lot of people like Sorcerers with Silent Spell to counter Silence...but how often do you really encounter that?
Overall both the Sorcerer class and metamagic feats were good ideas that didnt get executed all that well.
People's low opinion of sorcerors comes, I think, from the fact that people don't associate relatively pure hack n slash play with magic using D4hd classes. Sorcerors are not good if they specialize outside of damage-dealing spells; compared to bards and wizards, they are an inefficient and inflexible way to do nuanced non-combat magic. But that's not what they are for.
I rarely play sorcerors for the same reason that I rarely play fighters or barbarians. But I don't think any of these three classes is inferior for the purposes for which they are designed.
I rarely play sorcerors for the same reason that I rarely play fighters or barbarians. But I don't think any of these three classes is inferior for the purposes for which they are designed.
Dave Turner
First Post
The sorcerer is a weaker choice because the niche and concept of the class has been so clearly improved upon in other published WotC books.
The psion is the perfect flex-caster. The flexibility isn't just compartmentalized to spell levels, but across all spells (I'll cast the psionic terms and rules like powers and power points into a magical metaphor to make my point). The sorceror has flexibility, but only within a particular spell level. Once he's out of first level spell slots, his ability to choose between three 1st-level spells is meaningless. The mid-level psion, on the other hand, can cast a dozen 1st-level spells if the situation demands it. Psions are the kings of spellcasting flexibility and shame the sorceror.
The warlock is a better version of the "few spells often used" archetype than the sorceror. The warlock takes over the sorceror's machinegun role with his reusable blast. He gets a few other spells that he uses forever. The warlock has fewer spells than a sorceror but unlimited uses. Why choose the sorceror's limited spells per day when you can have a comparably limited set of spells that you can use all day?
Sorcerers are D&D's red-headed stepchild. They terrible in 3.5 and remain so in 3.5 now that the psion and warlock are on the scene. Hopefully, 4.0 will absorb the psionics system and make that what sorcerors use. You can then go the Arcana Evolved route and have sorcerers and psions that rely on the same system with different flavor (AE's witches).
The psion is the perfect flex-caster. The flexibility isn't just compartmentalized to spell levels, but across all spells (I'll cast the psionic terms and rules like powers and power points into a magical metaphor to make my point). The sorceror has flexibility, but only within a particular spell level. Once he's out of first level spell slots, his ability to choose between three 1st-level spells is meaningless. The mid-level psion, on the other hand, can cast a dozen 1st-level spells if the situation demands it. Psions are the kings of spellcasting flexibility and shame the sorceror.
The warlock is a better version of the "few spells often used" archetype than the sorceror. The warlock takes over the sorceror's machinegun role with his reusable blast. He gets a few other spells that he uses forever. The warlock has fewer spells than a sorceror but unlimited uses. Why choose the sorceror's limited spells per day when you can have a comparably limited set of spells that you can use all day?
Sorcerers are D&D's red-headed stepchild. They terrible in 3.5 and remain so in 3.5 now that the psion and warlock are on the scene. Hopefully, 4.0 will absorb the psionics system and make that what sorcerors use. You can then go the Arcana Evolved route and have sorcerers and psions that rely on the same system with different flavor (AE's witches).
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