Are Sorcerers really that bad?

[Ao the Overkitty]

I have chosen a sorcerer over a wizard every time based on rules. I'm really good at making a utilitarian spell list and find trying to change it each day to fit what I think is going to happen tedious. That's just personal preference. I'm lazy. I'd much rather choose what spells I know will always be useful and make my GM's head hurt when I use them effectively in ways he/she hadn't considered. I was never good at deciding just how many invisbilities or mage armors I'd need in a day anyway.

I don't recall the option for sorcerors to substitute higher level spell slots for lower level spell slots in RAW, but I haven't looked at 3.5 recently. As other posts in this thread suggest, however, if you've had to house-rule how sorcerer handles magic, then there's something lacking in the RAW.

It's not a house rule, afaik. It is hidden in chapter ten of the phb in the wizard and cleric sections under spell slots, but it is there.

A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

This just goes along with the 10th level sorcerer with the fourteen charisma. He still has those 5th level spell slots, but doesn't have the charisma to cast fifth level spells, so he uses those slots to cast lower level spells.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Craft Wand is a great feat. I love wands.

My wizards never leave home without a Wand of Ray of FEEB anymore, since even at caster level 1 it's good enough to mess up High Str NPCs most of the time. At higher levels you can afford Empowered FEEB or Ray of Exhaustion wands. When you've only got one, even Touch attacks are dicey, but when you can bust out as many as you need to get the job done, it's great.

And THAT, I think, is where the Wizard outperforms the Sorc. The Sorc could cast 5 RoE spells a day, but the Wizard could cast FIFTY ... for 375gp and a laughable amount of XP.

People hate paying XP costs, but I played an item-creation specialist and it was a blast. Needed a wand bandolier for the wands he'd created.

Unlike a Sorc, who would need to spend a critical Known Spell on Ray of Feeb to make a wand, my Wizard honestly never memorized it again unless he had special reason to know he'd like a metamagic-version that would be worth casting with True Strike.

--fje

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

As I mentioned over in the other recent sorcerer thread, I find sorcerers and wizards to be almost equivalent powerwise. I find sorcerers to creep a bit behind the wizards (something like the way fighters creep behind rangers and barbarians at higher levels), and so I give them something extra (also detailed in that thread--essentially themed bonus spells known with drawbacks to balance). But the something extra I give them is also designed to help enhance the flavour of the sorcerer...something that's hinted at but not really given much to back itself up with. Each sorcerer in my campaign automatically has a theme and abilities that differentiate it from most other sorcerers, and from wizards, which IMO makes them a more viable choice for "primary spellcaster".

Having a solid alternative to wizards that aren't just "wizards without all the Vance" makes it a more attractive class, I think.

 

[Grimstaff]

The Domain Wizard variant from UA seems like it would be a good match for Sorcs, as far as giving them an extra spell to their Known list, and would maybe offer a little more flavor than "a Dragon bonked my Great-Grandma".

 

[Ogre Mage]

No, but I'd rather play a psion.

 

[Afrodyte]

But the something extra I give them is also designed to help enhance the flavour of the sorcerer...something that's hinted at but not really given much to back itself up with. Each sorcerer in my campaign automatically has a theme and abilities that differentiate it from most other sorcerers, and from wizards, which IMO makes them a more viable choice for "primary spellcaster".

Having a solid alternative to wizards that aren't just "wizards without all the Vance" makes it a more attractive class, I think.

I concur. If you don't mind my asking, how did you categorize the various themes? Were they similar to the domain wizard variant in Unearthed Arcana?

 

[Kunimatyu]

My DM added a free metamagic/draconic feat at 1st/5th/10th/etc, and that's been working great. Of course, my sorceror in question is a kobold, so taking lots of draconic feats has really added to his flavor.

I'm suprised so many people are saying that sorcerors are great with damaging spells. The nastiest sorcerors I've seen -- mostly in Living Greyhawk, bastion of powergaming that it is -- are battle control sorcerors. I mean, Fireball is cute, but Sleet Storm, Cloudkill, and Solid Fog just straight up win fights.

Honestly, though, I'll take a Warmage or a Warlock before I'll ever play a sorceror. Warmage gives you damage and battle control, Warlock gives you random cool stuff, and both are more durable than the poor Sorceror.

 

[amethal]

I don't recall the option for sorcerors to substitute higher level spell slots for lower level spell slots in RAW, but I haven't looked at 3.5 recently.

I couldn't find it in the SRD, but its in the Players Handbook. I think under the "Spells" class ability heading.

EDIT - maybe it isn't. I just had a browse through a PH in my FLGs and couldn't find it. Maybe it was changed from 3.0 (or maybe I am going mad )

Do you play 3.0? Read the sorcerer description again in your 3.0 Players Handbook. Its in there as well (not sure where, but from memory it is easier to find than in the 3.5 version).

 

[swrushing]

[/QUOTE]

Craft Wand is a great feat. I love wands.

I concur. So did the gnomish sorcerer in my game.

My wizards never leave home without a Wand of Ray of FEEB anymore, since even at caster level 1 it's good enough to mess up High Str NPCs most of the time. At higher levels you can afford Empowered FEEB or Ray of Exhaustion wands. When you've only got one, even Touch attacks are dicey, but when you can bust out as many as you need to get the job done, it's great.

he tended to stick with first level wands mostly. cheap and quick to make. of course, iirc RoEnF had a save back then.

And THAT, I think, is where the Wizard outperforms the Sorc. The Sorc could cast 5 RoE spells a day, but the Wizard could cast FIFTY ... for 375gp and a laughable amount of XP.

Well, lets be fair, if the sor is casting these, he's getting more drain and better penetration since its not 1st level, and he is probably not as limited on range.

People hate paying XP costs, but I played an item-creation specialist and it was a blast. Needed a wand bandolier for the wands he'd created.

indeed i often envisioned the gnomish sorcerer as looking quite porcupinish.

Unlike a Sorc, who would need to spend a critical Known Spell on Ray of Feeb to make a wand, my Wizard honestly never memorized it again unless he had special reason to know he'd like a metamagic-version that would be worth casting with True Strike.

--fje

and again the sor works better when one knows the rules.

a sor would NOT have to know the spell, just have a scroll or lacking that have a friend who could cast it, or someone who could be paid to.

the sor in my game juts counted the 25 gp for the scroll purchase as part of the cost, so his wand of RoEnf would cost him 400 gp instead of 375 gp.

now, sure, those 25 gp would add up after a time but frankly, by 6th level or so, is 25 gp really a "critical deal"?

again, having seen a sorcerer in play for years who made great hay from his wands feat, i really don't see this as a major difference, the whole wands thing.

SRD under magic item creation:
"These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)."

 

[Graf]

Seems like the short answer is "probably not".

I'd be keen on trying a "face man" + sorcerer. Do people basically just up Int to get more skill points and buy social skills cross class?