Are spell DC's too low?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I am not a whining player, I am a DM watching frustrated mages.

With a DC of only 10+lvl+modifier the DC's for spells are really low. We play fairly low scores, so most of the Mages have +2 in their casting stat, so a first level spell is just DC 13. Thus the monsters keep making their saves. Now, there are no-save alternatives, but they have pretty much stopped casting 'save' spells because of how infrequent they work.

Am I missing something?

Usually, the highest spell a character can cast has a 50% chance to go unresisted by the enemies good save (since good save increase by 1/2 your character level, just as spell levels increase at this rate).
Against the weakest save, the chance for saving throw failure is higher (progressively, since the gap between 1/3 and 1/2 increases with level).
But saves aren´t entirely equal. Creatures and characters with good Reflex saves usually also have good dexterity, while constitution and wisdom usually doesn´t increase at that rate (except in case of Clerics and Druids).

 

[dvvega]

It depends on what you are calling low scores. If you want to play straight forward d20, a 25 point buy is supposed to be the baseline ... and the monsters are supposed to match that.

So a +2 for their main casting ability is pretty standard for a default balanced game.

For example a 1st level caster, casting a 1st level spell would generate a DC13 in your case.

A single orc (CR1/2), has +3/0/-2 as his save modifiers (For/Ref/Wil)

So for his best save he has a 50% chance of saving. But pity him if its a Will save, he has 40% chance of saving.

D

 

[Felon]

9 points from a saved-from fireball against 4 opponents is 36 damage, compared to buffy's average of 21 damage.

Right. And Buffy can miss.

However, fireball doesn't work well against single opponents, or speedy opponents. That's why there are so many spells. The trick is to know which ones to prepare.

And when in doubt, magic missile.

 

[Tharen the Damned]

That same wizard at 5th level, now with Spell Focus (evocation) casting fireball, now has a Int of 16, and a DC of 17. Against four Sahuagin (CR 2, EL 6, Ref +4), they each need 13s to save (or a 60% chance of failure). Failure is 17 damage, success is 8 damage - we can assume 50 damage.

Isn´t it:

17 x 60% x 4 + 8 x 40% x 4 = 53,6 pts.?

 

[Zappo]

It depends on what you are calling low scores. If you want to play straight forward d20, a 25 point buy is supposed to be the baseline ... and the monsters are supposed to match that.

Monsters use a standard array of 10,10,10,11,11,11 or 13,12,11,10,9,8. That is 15 points. Elite monsters use an array of 15,14,13,12,10,8, or 25 points, but then their CR is increased by 1. Baseline PCs are supposed to be a fair bit above norm.

Anyway, I don't think that DCs are too low. You only need to learn two things.

First, know your opponent. Cast slay living at rogues and aberrations, fireballs at clerics and undead, and dominates at fighters and giants. If you can't, cast dominate at rogues, slay living at clerics, and fireballs at fighters, keeping in mind that those are suboptimal choices (because of slippery mind, good Fort and high HP respectively). Don't cast fireball at rogues, slay living at fighters, and dominate at clerics. Chances are you'll just waste a round and a spell. Buff your friends instead.

Second, know yourself. You have weaknesses. There are opponents that are especially hard for a spellcasters, no two ways about it. Don't cast anything at dragons, monks or outsiders. Buff your friends instead.

If DCs were higher, spellcasters employing good tactics would quickly become overpowered, much like certain builds were in 3.0.

 

[WizarDru]

Spell DCs are not too low. At 1st level, I created a sorceror who cast Sleep with a DC15 on a 28 pt. buy. A large chunk of my group's success in Necromancer's Lost City of Barakus can be tied to my successful use of that spell. Some spells are going to be much more succesful against some opponents than others. However, even a head to head battle still has the 'everybody rolls a '1' rule.

The misconception may come from the belief that spells should always land...that's why we have saves in the first place. Many spells still pack a punch, save or no save. And as someone pointed out, those spells will eventually get turned around on the party...and they won't seem quite so low, then.

Spellcasters have plenty of ways to raise those DCs, if that's what they want to do.

 

[JimAde]

It's funny to see this thread right now. The player of the main spellcaster in the game I run has just recently "gotten" this idea. He went from being quite ineffective in combat to suddenly kicking butt and taking names.

Hold Person on the big, bad fighter. Searing Light on the flunky with the crossbow. And when all else fails buff your friends. He now rocks.

 

[Mercule]

As a GM, I used to be of the opinion that some of the save DCs were a bit low, for both sides. As I've been paying better attension over the course of my current campaign, I'm finding that they're actually pretty well balanced.

It's a matter of what your expectations of spells are. Fireball isn't supposed to kill all the enemy in a well-matched fight. It's supposed to slow them down or expend some resources (namely HP) that forces them to be a bit more guarded. Likewise, Hold Person is a save/die spell vs. a single foe, but against a group, it just temporarily reduces their number -- sometimes.

Honestly, if spells worked as often as we "expect" them to, there'd be no point in playing anything besides a caster of some sort, and even then, it'd be a dangerous and gritty game.

 

[Romnipotent]

remind them Jesus saves, the rest take full damage

 

[Staffan]

If in your game the spell DC is too low, use the old versions of SF/GSF and see if it helps.

In my campaign, I let Spell focus give +2 and don't allow Greater spell focus. That seems more balanced.