Are spell DC's too low?

[WizarDru]

Yes, right I forgot. Sorc/wiz always know what is the most effective spell to prepare/know at any point in time right? Wizards will always somehow have access to the right spells, have thousands of gold and plenty of downtime to learn every single spell that might be useful. Sorcs also have plenty of spells known slots to cover effective spell combinations that will applicable all the time. Additionally sorcs/wiz have the ability to somehow pin point the exact weak saves of their opponents right?

Well, sorcerors don't have to know ahead of time....that's the whole point of BEING a sorceror. Limited utility, but rapid response. Now, if you're refering to a DM shutting down a wizard's ability to get new spells...then yes, they'll be at a disadvantage: but that has nothing to do with the feats in question or their DCs, either way.

Sorcerors have few spells: they know this, and should select accordingly. It's no accident that most sorcerors stick to a couple of simple templates: they can't afford to be too tricky...you don't have the capacity for it. Most sorcerors develop into one-trick ponies: the blaster, the buffer, the rogue multi-classer, etc.

Wizards have much more access, and get more spells EVEN if the DM shuts them down. Proper preparation is the key for them. Most wizards I've ever seen (on either side of the table) fall into one of two categories: boy-scouts and specialists. Boy-scouts are 'always prepared'. They reserve certain slots for utility spells every day, regardless of need. They know what they might need, and keep a few spells ready for emergencies. For example, I know more than one mage who keeps a Silenced Dispel Magic ready at all times...just in case. Specialists are the opposite; they prepare for the day's mission in full-force. If they run into something that they aren't prepared to deal with, they just say "Guys, we need to retreat until tomorrow, when I can deal with this..." or they carry scrolls and potions for such emergencies (and later, Rings of Storing, Wands and so forth). Its no different than a warrior having a bow AND a sword...preparation for the right situation is desirable, if not always attainable.

As for knowing the best DCs: often, it's intuitvely obvious. Paper-Rock-Scissors applies, here; generally, every creature has a weakness. Physically strong usually means a good FORT, highly intelligent usually means good WILL, and fast usually means a good REF. It's a simple run. Sometimes you learn the hard way what spells work best where....but overall, you pick your targets appropriately. Big creature with heavy natural armor? Use a touch spell. Incorporeal or high AC creature? Use a force effect. High saves or SR? Use a spell that doesn't grant one.

It's impossible to always have the right spell, but it's not impossible to have one right for the situation most of the time.

 

[VirgilCaine]

I was enjoying playing a super-Transmuter ... but he did eventually get his butt kicked by a horde of rogues flanking him to death. Every character has *some* weakness...

Yeah, like not being able to cast fly...?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Yes, right I forgot. Sorc/wiz always know what is the most effective spell to prepare/know at any point in time right? Wizards will always somehow have access to the right spells, have thousands of gold and plenty of downtime to learn every single spell that might be useful. Sorcs also have plenty of spells known slots to cover effective spell combinations that will applicable all the time. Additionally sorcs/wiz have the ability to somehow pin point the exact weak saves of their opponents right?

Really, it's not that hard. Know or prepare a variety of spells.
1. Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Color Spray
2. Flaming Sphere, blindness/deafness, Glitterdust
3. Fireball, Slow, stinking cloud

Not a bad or an unusual selection and yet there's three will save spells, two reflex save spells, and two fort save spells there. There are also two spells without saves at all. A sorcerer will have a limited selection of spells and will often have to substitute no-save spells for spells targetting a particular save for the first five levels or so, but sorcerers can manage as well.

As for targetting spells--it's pretty easy to get a 75% success rate (successful guessing). If it wears heavy armor, try reflex. If it casts spells, don't try will. If it wields a finessable weapon and/or wears light armor, don't use reflex. With monsters, if it's big and beefy, reflex or will is probably weak (will for animals, reflex for giants). Etc.

 

[GuardianLurker]

Well, speaking as someone who once played an Fire Savant Wizard, I know I got frustrated.

My fighter companions would do 50+ HP damage to a single NPC in a round, usually enough to drop a flunky in a round, and a big flunky in two. My fireball spell would do 30 HP, before save, to 4-5 NPCs. Typically even the flunkies would live. And casting it generally didn't even reduce the time it would take for my fighter allies to chew thru the flunkies.

When I wanted to shutdown a leader, I was pretty much reduced to Will save spells. Not so good against casters.

And that's not counting the Fire Resistance problem. I quickly found myself most effective as the party buff machine. Not so much fun.

Edit: Pressed submit too soon.

I used to think it was a spell DC problem, but I ran the numbers last night, and the Good save progression gets *worse* against the highest level spells as the spell level climbs. So I've been forced to conclude that I was throwing spells sub-optimally.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Well, speaking as someone who once played an Fire Savant Wizard, I know I got frustrated.

My fighter companions would do 50+ HP damage to a single NPC in a round, usually enough to drop a flunky in a round, and a big flunky in two. My fireball spell would do 30 HP, before save, to 4-5 NPCs. Typically even the flunkies would live. And casting it generally didn't even reduce the time it would take for my fighter allies to chew thru the flunkies.

As MerricB pointed out in another thread, you have to keep in mind that 30 pts of damage to 4 foes is 120 points of damage total. Not too shabby at all. I sympathize with you regarding not reducing the time it would take to down the flunkies. Then again, unless your fighter buddies can down all 4 in the next round, it's nothing that another fireball won't solve.

When I wanted to shutdown a leader, I was pretty much reduced to Will save spells. Not so good against casters.

Disintegrate my good man, disintegrate! Target that Fort Save. And what 1d4 HD caster is going to survive 2d6/level damage?

And that's not counting the Fire Resistance problem. I quickly found myself most effective as the party buff machine. Not so much fun.

This is a campaign-specific problem, I think. I once created a Wizard/Loremaster whose attack spells were all fire-based. I meant him to enter into Archmage and pick up Mastery of Elements in a couple levels (he was 12th), at which point he'd have whatever element he needed. Wouldn't you know it? The first (and only, it turned out) adventure we went on was set in a volcano, against salamanders and fire elementals.

 

[GuardianLurker]

unless your fighter buddies can down all 4 in the next round, it's nothing that another fireball won't solve.

Yep, they could. and wizard, not sorceror, how many of those do you think I stock?

Disintegrate my good man, disintegrate! Target that Fort Save. And what 1d4 HD caster is going to survive 2d6/level damage?

Doesn't work if you don't have 6th Level spells, and the campaign ended before I got there.

This is a campaign-specific problem, I think.

Sort of yes, sort of no. As you climb higher in levels Energy Resistance becomes more and more common in the opponents, and Fire Resistance is the first to appear and is the most common.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Direct damage is a fine way to clearing the weaker mooks, but the HPs of the tough grunts have been cranked up in every edition since 1e. With the removal of the 3.0 SuperHaste from the game, getting kills with direct damage is a lost cause in 3.5. Too many HPs.

I have played a Wizard some in an Against the Giants campaign. I do not even bother to toss Fireballs at Frost Giants. Experience has shown my most efficient options are to buff up my allies and cast Wall spells to isolate easily defeated small groups of giants.