Are spell DC's too low?

[Berk]

*waves his "what Jeremy said" flag around*

 

[Jeremy]

Yay! That's the second time someone's waved that flag!

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

More charisma, while having no CLASS benefit, might be more of a CHARACTER issue. There ARE suave, less-than-super-egghead wizards out there, and some of htem might even be PC's.

...

It's one thing to excel at your "Schtick" ... it's another thing if your "Schtick" is the ONLY thing you can even ATTEMPT, save to generate comic relief.

In the particular case of a straight 20th level wizard more than a little focus should be expected. It is a class that rewards dedication in the long run. If you are not a little singleminded you will be tempted by multiclassing opportunities along the way.

If I want a little breadth with my wizard, I will spend skill points to do so. Investing in Diplomacy, even as a cross class skill, and an Expanded Expanded Eagle's Splendor will go a lot further than shaving points off my Int for my hobbies.

Your point does sense if your character started off with an interesting jumble of rolled stats, but that is not exactly the norm.

 

[Pax]

I totally disagree Pax.

Why spend one of your 5 limited level up increases when you can simply cast a 20 hour endurance or cat's grace for even more to hit or to init?

Why do only the one, when you could do both?

And as for being a cardboard 2D cut out.... You're kidding right? These are wizards we are talking about! More spellcasting capability and potency fleshes them out more than anyone else out there. Anything someone can do with a skill, a stat, or an item, a wizard can do (sometimes better) with a spell.

I find rounded characters -- characters who are more than their class, and a bunch of numbers to optimise that class -- to be preferable in all but silly hack-fest oneshot games (which, ofc, have their own brand of fun).

Adding to INT directly adds to the versatility and concentrated focus of the wizard at the same time!

It adds only to their UberWizardNess(tm). It doesn't make them that much different from the NEXT 2D cardboard-cutout wizard who's done the same exact thing, now, does it?

It means enough slots to have not only a horrid willting or two prepared but also enough room for a precognition or mass invisibility, or skitish nerves spell for a HUGE bonus to initiative, or stone skin for virtual hit points, or false life for actual hit points, or who knows how many other spells.

That's still 2D. "Spells, spells, moe spells" is about as 2D a wizard as you can make (you can go 1D if you wish, with all the exact same spells, but that's a different issue). The point is, the character isn't anything BUT a spell-thrower.

AND it makes your contribution to the party (you're there to help out remember?) more appreciated and more applicable.

By all that logic, having a Wizard take the feat, "Martial weapon proficiency: Longsword" would also be silly ... yet, Gandalf, quintessential archetype of the D&D wizard, wielded Orcrist, a magical elven longsword, with proficiency.

Sometimes deviating from "the path of assured min/max goodness" is better ... like when it produces a character who is not a 2D cardboard-cutout mockery of role playing.

 

[IceBear]

I think giving spellcasters yet another way of increasing the Save DC of their spells would be unbalancing.

If he NEEDS to use Charm Person with a better DC, then heighten it. There are probably higher level spells out there that he could use instead anyway.

IceBear

 

[Spatula]

Presumably the wizard's other stats aren't all 10's. Some wizards will be faster than others, some wiser, some smarter, etc. So each wizard is already unique from the beginning. You can spread your ability increases around to reinforce that, or you can use your skill points and feats to customize your character (which is really what they're there for) or you could do both. Many players get all the customization they need from their feat and skill choices.

By all that logic, having a Wizard take the feat, "Martial weapon proficiency: Longsword" would also be silly ... yet, Gandalf, quintessential archetype of the D&D wizard, wielded Orcrist, a magical elven longsword, with proficiency.

Glamdring, actually. Plus Gandalf is an immortal outsider and there's nothing that says he's purely a wizard. Besides, the topic of the moment is ability increases and feats are not ability increases.

 

[Jeremy]

How many more posts you think we can get by going back and forth like this?

Why do only the one, when you could do both?

One spell and not both? Because 16 Int starting and a +3 stat book was "excessive" and I didn't want to offend.

I find rounded characters -- characters who are more than their class, and a bunch of numbers to optimise that class -- to be preferable in all but silly hack-fest oneshot games (which, ofc, have their own brand of fun).

*I* find that characters that have all their stat allocations in one stat can still be rounded by feat selection, skill selection, prestige class selection (or lack there of), magical item selection, and in this case spell selection and daily spell preparation.

Having a 30 on your character sheet does not mean you cease to be able to roleplay or are incapable of choosing feats such as, say weapon proficiency: longsword.

It adds only to their UberWizardNess(tm). It doesn't make them that much different from the NEXT 2D cardboard-cutout wizard who's done the same exact thing, now, does it?

Now that's plain silly. It adds skill points so you can deviate with things like armorsmith, diplomacy, alchemy, or profession tailor if you like. It also allows you more flexibility in your chosen profession, in this case casting "spells, spells, moe spells". That it raises your spell DC's is just gravy.

That's still 2D. "Spells, spells, moe spells" is about as 2D a wizard as you can make (you can go 1D if you wish, with all the exact same spells, but that's a different issue). The point is, the character isn't anything BUT a spell-thrower.

WHAT?! When was the last time you played a wizard? A wizard with access to more spells (higher INT=better spellcraft for scribing) and more spell slots (bonus slots to prepare spells that couldn't normally be afforded) and the ability to scribe formerly said greater library spells makes a wizard anything but "just a spell-thrower".

With charisma boosting spells he can be a diplomat or spy.

With invisibility and flight he can be an infiltrator or cat burgler.

With mage armor, shield, stoneskin, globe of invulnerability, and tenser's transformation he can be a front line tank.

With summon monster ("Walk down that hallway.") and knock he can be a trap monkey or locksmith.

With rope trick or secure shelter or magnificent mansion he can be a night watchman.

With see invisibility, glitter dust, and dispel magic he can be a mage killer.

With phantasmal killer and finger of death he can be a rogue killer.

With wall of force or charm person he can be a fighter killer.

(We don't want to kill clerics, so we'll maze them. Best not to offend the gods.)

With stat buffing spells and meta magic we can double and triple those piddly level up stat bonuses that apparently make us two dimensional.

And with high intelligence we can do all of these on the same day every day.

Tell me how that's now rounded?

By all that logic, having a Wizard take the feat, "Martial weapon proficiency: Longsword" would also be silly ... yet, Gandalf, quintessential archetype of the D&D wizard, wielded Orcrist, a magical elven longsword, with proficiency.

I thought Thorin had Orcrist and Gandalf had the Foehammer (whichever one that one was... ). In either case, a wizard could take whatever feats he wanted. I never said otherwise. I just think that putting all your stat increases into your spellcasting stat is a wise choice for a wizard.

Sometimes deviating from "the path of assured min/max goodness" is better ... like when it produces a character who is not a 2D cardboard-cutout mockery of role playing.

As I said, a 30 intelligence does not mean you stop role playing. But I might also add, that with the way 3e is designed, sometimes diversifying your abilities all over the place only makes you good enough to almost succeed at everything you try. The game's mechanics and CR system assume that at X level you have Y capabilities. If you diverged off your expected course too extremely, you may not fill those capabilities, and what should be a simple challenge could cost adventurer lives. This isn't a necessarily bad thing, but neither is your assertion that having high stats makes a two dimensional cardboard-cutout mockery of role playing.

Sometimes, particularly in the case of single classed spellcasters, focusing on your strengths is wiser than diversifying to different fields that can be done better by other party members.

This doesn't mean that you are a one trick pony (ESPECIALLY not with a wizard's repetoire), it means you require, and in fact encourage roleplay.



Tag. You're it.

 

[Victim]

By maxing out INT, wizards get so many skill points that they can easily dump tons into cross class skills for customization. When a wizard gets 6+ skills per level, and only needs 3 for Spellcraft, Knowledge: Arcana, and Concentration, he has plenty of room to work on secondary skills. Scry is good too, but by the time you need it, the wizard should get more than 6 points.

Right now, I have a wizard in the IC forum with some Diplomacy, Riding, Martial weapon proficiency, extra languages and some worthless knowledge skills. However, he can still throw out a DC 22 first level spell at level 9 with no FR spell power stuff. Granted, I could have done more to increase the DCs, but I felt that those DCs were more than adequate.

 

[Pax]

How many more posts you think we can get by going back and forth like this?

Dunno. Shall we find out?

One spell and not both? Because 16 Int starting and a +3 stat book was "excessive" and I didn't want to offend.

The +3 book isn't the excessive bit I objected to before, actually. And as for both, I mean, both the stat increase AND the spell. The two would stack, after all.

*I* find that characters that have all their stat allocations in one stat can still be rounded by feat selection, skill selection, prestige class selection (or lack there of), magical item selection, and in this case spell selection and daily spell preparation.

I find that (IMO) escessive focus on a 1D/2D definition of your character, leads to 2D-ness.

Having a 30 on your character sheet does not mean you cease to be able to roleplay or are incapable of choosing feats such as, say weapon proficiency: longsword.

I never said it did. However, having a 24 Intelligence, and 6 points distributed (by various means) among your OTHER stats, does make your character's abilities more well-rounded ... skillwise AND by other means.

Now that's plain silly. It adds skill points so you can deviate with things like armorsmith, diplomacy, alchemy, or profession tailor if you like. It also allows you more flexibility in your chosen profession, in this case casting "spells, spells, moe spells". That it raises your spell DC's is just gravy.

Okay, let's stop talking wizards for a moment, and talk Sorcerors, Clerics, Druids, Bards, and so on. Upping THEIR spellcasting stat does nothing for skills or diversity, now does it?

WHAT?! When was the last time you played a wizard?

The character before my current one (a cleric). Necromancer/Loremaster (LN, actually). Quite a fun idea -- went for a 16 CON, that and Vampiric Touch made him quite dangerous at melee range. Of course, he was a shrieks-like-a-little-girl COWARD, and ... shall we say ... fond of his food and drink. Picture a tough guy, who's also a "sissy" uber-fat man. Heh.

A wizard with access to more spells (higher INT=better spellcraft for scribing) and more spell slots (bonus slots to prepare spells that couldn't normally be afforded) and the ability to scribe formerly said greater library spells makes a wizard anything but "just a spell-thrower".

Versatility of spell selection does not make the wizard well-rounded.

What if he finds himself (to borrow briefly from the FR) stuck in a Dead Magic zone? Where do all those bonus spells get him?

Nowhere.

With charisma boosting spells he can be a diplomat or spy.

He can be LIKE a diplomat or spy. As a spy, however ... radiating magic wouldn't be the best idea, now, would it?

*snip further examples of how spells can help a wizard do things*

Tell me how that's [not] rounded?

What can the wizard do if spellcasting is, for whatever reason, not an option? If the wizard must use spells to achieve an end, that to me is pretty one- or two-dimensional.

Regardles of how well-rounded the Wizard's spellbook is, how well-rounded is the Wizard ... ?

I thought Thorin had Orcrist and Gandalf had the Foehammer (whichever one that one was... ). In either case, a wizard could take whatever feats he wanted. I never said otherwise. I just think that putting all your stat increases into your spellcasting stat is a wise choice for a wizard.

Okay, I probably mixed the sword names up. However ... use your very logic WRT attributes, on feats now: why divert a feat or skill point to something else, when it oculd be used to MUCH better effect enhancing the Wizard's spellcasting ability?

Answer: only for diversity in character ability ... same as with attribute increases.

As I said, a 30 intelligence does not mean you stop role playing. But I might also add, that with the way 3e is designed, sometimes diversifying your abilities all over the place only makes you good enough to almost succeed at everything you try.

You will note, I did state I expect a wizard to spend 3, perhaps 4, points on intelligence period; it is a PRIORITY.

I think attribute-adds on a single stat, to the exclusion fo all other options, is a bit two-dimensional. Alone it doesn't make the wizard such, but combined with feats chosen in similar manner, it can and does.

The game's mechanics and CR system assume that at X level you have Y capabilities. If you diverged off your expected course too extremely, you may not fill those capabilities, and what should be a simple challenge could cost adventurer lives. This isn't a necessarily bad thing, but neither is your assertion that having high stats makes a two dimensional cardboard-cutout mockery of role playing.

I don't think diverting a couple points from a spellcasting stat, to another stat, will make you fall that far below the power curve. Nor diverting a few feats (or all of them).

Sometimes, particularly in the case of single classed spellcasters, focusing on your strengths is wiser than diversifying to different fields that can be done better by other party members.

This doesn't mean that you are a one trick pony (ESPECIALLY not with a wizard's repetoire), it means you require, and in fact encourage roleplay.

Until an NPC thief steals the Wizard's spellbook(s). *poof* no more repertoire (at least, for a while).

 

[Pax]

Right now, I have a wizard in the IC forum with some Diplomacy, Riding, Martial weapon proficiency, extra languages and some worthless knowledge skills. However, he can still throw out a DC 22 first level spell at level 9 with no FR spell power stuff. Granted, I could have done more to increase the DCs, but I felt that those DCs were more than adequate.

Care to enlighten us how you achieved THAT trick?

Let's see, DC22 on a first level spellmeans, you've got +11 from other sources. Assume an 18 starting intelligence (already unusual by standard rules), the L4 and L8 increases both to Intelligence for a 20, that's +5. Assuming you're counting in a Spell Focus feat, anotehr +2.

That leaves +4 unaccounted for. Even a headband (+6) isn't enough to account for that (and, price aside, at 9th level you should count a +4 headband a nice find, let alone a +6, IMO ... ).

Now, if you truly COULD increase them higher, that means you DON'T have Greater Spell Focus going for you.

All I can think of is, Spellcasting Prodigy, and that +6 Headband. IOW, everything top of the line, best it can be, except one missing feat.

Hardly what I would call -- nor will accept -- as a "typical wizard" example.