Are spell DC's too low?

[Celtavian]

Re

I think Spell DC's start to break down once you reach around level 15, and they especially start to break down once you reach epic levels.

It seems like the WOTC game designers failed to take into account the various ways that Saves rise compared to Spell DC's.

A save rises in the following way:
1. Base save is raised by one every other level.
2. Ability bonus increases with magic items and 1 ability score point every 4 levels.
3. Magical Resistance items that give a resistance bonus to all saves.
4. A variety of items and spells that give different types of bonuses to saves and different types of resistances to certain kinds of damage such as Major Ring of Fire Resistance.
5. There are also feats which give an increase to a specific category of save.


A Spell DC rises the following way:
1. Feats that increase the save DC for a certain category of spell mostly useful for one of four schools: Evocation, Enchantment, Transmutation or Necromancy. Or feat that raises level of Spell such as Heighten spell.
2. Increase in spell casting ability score.
3. Spell that increases the save DC of a spell.

These are the only ways I know of to increase spell DC's. This is fine for lower level play. In fact, it even favors the caster often times at lower level.

At higher level play, say 15 plus levels and especially at epic levels, magic items start to push the balance towards the non-spell caster. Save DC's become a joke where most players and monsters have about a 25% or less chance to fail a save.

Not to mention that most monsters have immunity to more than a few types of attacks, huge numbers of hit points, an SR that would make most casters puke, and spell attacks with DC's that far exceed anything a caster could muster up.

So Spell DC's do not scale at higher levels of play, and I feel this is a weakness of the spell DC system that the epic level game designers did not take into account. They should have made epic level spell focuses scale higher than an additional +2 considering they made epic level monster spell attack DC's scale according to the saves of the PC's.

High level spell DC's need work. Low to mid level Spell DC's are fine as is.

 

[Berk]

Spell DC's are fine the way they are atm, some even say they are too high as they are atm.

If lucky and get an 18 in your prime spellcasting stat you can get a 1st level spell's DC to 17 at 1st level. 18 if a human or even 19, don't have my books in front of me so don't know if there are any other prereqs for greater spell focus other then just spell focus.

Once you start going up in levels add on some oh red wizard levels and 3 archmage levels. DC's rise quickly my friends. =o)

Actually have a 20th level cleric where his 1st level spells have a DC of like 28, without having spell focus or any DC raising feats. Well it might not be 28 but it sure is damn high for a level 1 spell. All he has is a very high wisdom. Can't wait to get him some heirophant levels to add another +10 to all his DC's. =o)

 

[hammymchamham]

Sorry for the off topic post, but the scary part of your link to The Holy Book was this:

Customers who wear clothes also shop for:
Clean Underwear from Amazon's Target Store
Ladybug Rain Boots from Amazon's Nordstrom Store
Pet Socks from Amazon's Urban Outfitters Store
Puppy Footed One-Pieces for Newborns from Amazon's Old Navy Store
For a limited time get $30 to spend at Amazon when you spend $50 in Amazon's new Apparel Store! Limit one offer per household.
Explore more in Amazon's new Apparel Store

You mean their are customers who don't wear clothes?

I like save DC's as they are, maybe even using some of the psionics variant d20 + spell level + ability mod. Actually on second thought, it takes the spell casters in my group 2 minutes to figure out WHAT the save is, even if they have it written on their charecter sheets

 

[Pax]

I'll vote for the unseen "Option Four" ... like so:

10 + highest spell level caster can cast + spell level + attribute modifier + feat/class ability gained modifiers.

IMO, a Charm Person spell cast by a 20th level wizard, irrespective of feats, should be MUCH harder to resist than his 1st-level apprentice's Charm Person (represented by the Apprentice getting 10 + 1 + 1 base DC ... and the 20th level Wizard getting 10 + 9 + 1 base DC ... all before INT mods and feats, of course).

Granted, save DCs rise dramatically as the spellcaster levels up. But, then, so do save BONUSSES. IMO, the above as-yet-unplaytested idea is the simplest, easiest method to keep save DCs competitive, w/o milking PrC's and feats for every last scrap of DC boost one can find.

 

[Victim]

I'll vote for the unseen "Option Four" ... like so:

10 + highest spell level caster can cast + spell level + attribute modifier + feat/class ability gained modifiers.

IMO, a Charm Person spell cast by a 20th level wizard, irrespective of feats, should be MUCH harder to resist than his 1st-level apprentice's Charm Person (represented by the Apprentice getting 10 + 1 + 1 base DC ... and the 20th level Wizard getting 10 + 9 + 1 base DC ... all before INT mods and feats, of course).

Granted, save DCs rise dramatically as the spellcaster levels up. But, then, so do save BONUSSES. IMO, the above as-yet-unplaytested idea is the simplest, easiest method to keep save DCs competitive, w/o milking PrC's and feats for every last scrap of DC boost one can find.

Saving throw bonuses don't rise that quickly, unless everyone multis to both paladin and monk for a few levels. They'd have to in order survive those spellcasters.

Considering that a 20th level wizard will probably have something around a +10 Int modifier (that's not the max), his charm person DC would be 30 - without any feats.

 

[Pax]

Saving throw bonuses don't rise that quickly, unless everyone multis to both paladin and monk for a few levels. They'd have to in order survive those spellcasters.

Considering that a 20th level wizard will probably have something around a +10 Int modifier (that's not the max), his charm person DC would be 30 - without any feats.

20'th level wizard, with +10 or better Int modifier?

That pretty well requires you to START with an 18, throw all 5 points from levelling into Intelligence, AND get a Tome for +5 more, AND wear a +6 Headband of Intellect ... for a net of 34 Intelligence, or +12 modifier. IOW, that's an incredibly extreme example -- and quite twinked for save DCs.

Besides, without that, I can get the 1st-level saves to the 40-some-odd range anyway, it just requires milking some Prestige Classes (Archmage and Shadow Adept, from the FRCS, specifically ... spellpower upon spellpower ...).

Lastly, I did say it was unplaytested. However, I think a wizard (or other caster) who focusses so heavily on Intelligence and save DC's, -should- be frightful. -Should- make people worry whenever he casts a spell at or near them.

It's too easy to MAKE most saves, really. A given character -- PC or NPC -- should IMO average out to a 50/50 chance, in general, of making saves against spells from a similar-level caster. At 20th level, a save DC of 20-30 is laughably easy for most monsters to shrug off (CR20 critters tend to have "weak" save bonusses in the 15-20 range ... and "strong" saves in the 30-40+ range).

 

[demon_jr]

Based on what has been said so far, I would have to agree that the way the system is now works best.

At first, I believed that, in general, the DC for a spell would increase according to the level of the caster. However, I have begun to think otherwise based on what has been said so far.

Although it may make sense that a spell's power would increase along with caster level, in my opinion, I believe the game designers had game balance in mind by setting the DCs for certain spells at set levels.

But if you want to make it a house rule for your game then by all means go for it.

 

[maddman75]

I'd argue two reasons why saves should favor the target above fifteenth level.

- High level characters should be good at making saving throws. Remember, oftentimes in previous editions you had an average 5-15% chance of failing a save at these levels
- The spells are often MUCH more lethal at this level, with save or die being common, frequently with effects even if a save is made.

It ain't broke, so don't fix it. IMHO

 

[Jeremy]

That pretty well requires you to START with an 18, throw all 5 points from levelling into Intelligence, AND get a Tome for +5 more, AND wear a +6 Headband of Intellect ... for a net of 34 Intelligence, or +12 modifier. IOW, that's an incredibly extreme example -- and quite twinked for save DCs.

Or a 14 Intelligence or anything inbetween. Do you generally have straight wizards start with 13 intelligence or lower?

And precisely why would a wizard with 760,000 gp NOT spend a piddly 18% of his resources on a permanent non-dispellable +5 to his spellcasting stat? As it affects the number of spells he can cast, his understanding of them and capability to forumlate more of them, and the potency of said spells when cast... I'd say it was an expected investment.

As for putting all 5 of your increases into it.. Again, you only have to do that if you started with 14 intelligence or for some reason didn't purchase (or even manufacture) the appropriate tome.

I don't think it's extreme in the least for 20th level play. At 20th level, it's rather expected. You don't have to have thirty-FOUR intelligence, but surely you can swing thirty?

Besides, without that, I can get the 1st-level saves to the 40-some-odd range anyway, it just requires milking some Prestige Classes (Archmage and Shadow Adept, from the FRCS, specifically ... spellpower upon spellpower ...).

Yup. You can, and that plus 30+ intelligence is all the reason I need not to allow caster level to directly affect spell DC.

It's too easy to MAKE most saves, really. ..snip.. CR20 critters tend to have "weak" save bonusses in the 15-20 range ... and "strong" saves in the 30-40+ range.

Where did you get that idea?

CR 20:

20th level NPC Fighter- +18/+10/+10
20th level NPC Wizard- +9/+12/+16
Old Gold Dragon- +23/+16/+23
Gray Linnorm- +13/+8/+10
Megapede- +26/+8/+11
Orcwort- +27/+8/+13

It looks more to me like the high range is 16-27 (or 15-25 if you want pretty numbers), and the low range is 8-13 (5-15).

But we could be looking at different examples.

But the way I see it, if you are aiming for a perceived weak spot as you should be, then a DC of 25 is a 50/50 shot for most enemies at 20th level. A DC of 35 is near guaranteed death. And a DC of 50... Well, CR 20 creatures shouldn't be a problem if you can hit 50. You can purposefully go after dragons or monks (or other all-good-save creatures) and target their highest save and still watch them drop like flies with 10% or less chances of surviving.

I think DC's are quite lethal enough as it is.

 

[Victim]

Since a character's spellcasting stat increases both spell DCs and adds lots of bonus spells, primary spellcasters are definitely going to be boosting it. A stat of 30 is perfectly reasonable, it only requires a 16 starting stat and 3 of the level based increases. With 720 000 GP, I can't see many wizards or sorcerers not investing in their primary stat - it's not as if they need crazily powerful magic weapons or armor.

Also, I think a 50/50 save ratio for PCs is unacceptable in most cases. Failed save = character death. PC saves are gong to be anything but typical, because most players will attempt to avoid character death. For example, my brother tends to make Cloaks of Resistance his character's biggest item, at least until it becomes maxed out.

Sure, if you want, super high save DCs are possible. But you have to work at them, burning lots of feats, and taking prestige classes, just like characters have to work to get stronger saves - for example, taking Iron Will or getting a Periapt of Wisdom to go along with the mandatory cloak of resistance. Such a massive boost to DCs shouldn't be free.

And casters are supposed to aim at weak saves anyway. When you can reliably charm clerics of equal level, something is wron.