Are spell DC's too low?

[Ridley's Cohort]

20'th level wizard, with +10 or better Int modifier?

That pretty well requires you to START with an 18, throw all 5 points from levelling into Intelligence, AND get a Tome for +5 more, AND wear a +6 Headband of Intellect ... for a net of 34 Intelligence, or +12 modifier. IOW, that's an incredibly extreme example -- and quite twinked for save DCs.

Start with a 16 Int, +5 for leveling bonuses, +6 stat item, +3 from a book, that's a 30 Int score. That easily fits within the budget of a 20th level character.

It's too easy to MAKE most saves, really. A given character -- PC or NPC -- should IMO average out to a 50/50 chance, in general, of making saves against spells from a similar-level caster. At 20th level, a save DC of 20-30 is laughably easy for most monsters to shrug off (CR20 critters tend to have "weak" save bonusses in the 15-20 range ... and "strong" saves in the 30-40+ range).

At high levels that 50-50 save is a matter of life or death. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. It is not exactly fun to have your own PC Imploded or Disintegrated every other combat...

What does a typical good save look like? Consider Fort. A 12th level Fighter has a base +8, 14 starting Con and a +6 Con item gives another +5 bonus, throw on a Cloak of Resistance +3 and that totals to +16. The Disintegrate the Evil Sorceror throws at him has a DC of ~21. That's a 20% chance of death.

Of course, if you toss that Disintegrate at a Rogue or Wizard you will get the 50-50 you are looking for.

And I haven't even added on Feats or PrCs.

 

[dkilgo]

Why worry about it if it aint broke?

Why are you trying to fix it?

Do you think that your character is not powerful enough for you. If that was the case then you might very well fall into line behind Jeremy. Only to learn the wonderous ways of POWER GAMING.

Yeah, POWER GAMING!

<-- perhaps I am a little too estatic about this... whos knows?-->

 

[Pax]

Start with a 16 Int, +5 for leveling bonuses, +6 stat item, +3 from a book, that's a 30 Int score. That easily fits within the budget of a 20th level character.

IMO, even that is a (tad) excessive. I should think the level-increases for attributes would be best spread around a bit. Touch of Dexterity here, a point of Constitution there, and so on.

Any character who, having a single attribute as their primary stat, focusses solely (note I said solely, not primarily) on that stat as they gain levels, is min/maxxing already. I would expect 3 points to be added to intelligence in a balanced character, really. Maybe 4.

At high levels that 50-50 save is a matter of life or death. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. It is not exactly fun to have your own PC Imploded or Disintegrated every other combat...

Note, I said the AVERAGE across all saves. For the strong save, it should fall to roughly 25% chance of failure, for the weak save, 75% chance of failure.

What does a typical good save look like? Consider Fort. A 12th level Fighter has a base +8, 14 starting Con and a +6 Con item gives another +5 bonus,

No attribute-ups from levels? None from a book or bought/earned wishes? I think we can do better than a 20 Con. Let's call it 24 ... +1 from levelling and the same +3 book the wizard got.

throw on a Cloak of Resistance +3

Only +3? Try +5. Only 25K, literally chump change to a 20th level character.

and that totals to +16. The Disintegrate the Evil Sorceror throws at him has a DC of ~21. That's a 20% chance of death.

+8/base, +5/cloak, +7/Constitution. Without class or feat bonusses, that's a +20. IOW, "only fails on a 1" versis your Disintegrate's DC of 21 ... and that's not a exactly a LOW level spell, either.

Of course, if you toss that Disintegrate at a Rogue or Wizard you will get the 50-50 you are looking for.

Really, you should get better than 50-50, against their "weak" saves.

Let's look at this from the wiard's point of view: why risk a save at all, if you're most likely NOT going to see the save failed? You already GET precious few spells per day at any given spell-level ...

Spells should, on the whole of it, work somewhat more often than they don't. They -- unlike sword swings, for contrast -- are a limited-per-day commodity. Wizards need to carefully choose when and where to cast their spells; to face the very real possibility (IMO, likelihood) of the spell simply doing nothing (or next to it), can be most disheartening to a wizard.

And people wonder why spellcasters prefer to use buffs ... ? I'll tell you why: buffs don't give the other side a saving throw to negate or halve them!

And I haven't even added on Feats or PrCs.

For either side, so we will count them somewhat even. After all, I could scream "forsaker! forsaker! forsaker!" at you.

Nor races; it's easier to get a Con or Desxterity bonus, than an Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma bonus. IOW, it's easier to have a slightly higher save attribute, excepting Will saves, than it is to have a higher casting attribute, excepting some flavors of psionics.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Really, you should get better than 50-50, against their "weak" saves.

I wouldn't want to see my wizard have a greater than 50% chance of failing a saving throw vs Finger of Death.

I wish there was some kind of rule giving out bonuses vs death effects ... but fighters find it really easy to make those kinds of saves, however.

+8/base, +5/cloak, +7/Constitution.

I can't figure it out. What stats are being used?

IMO PCs often have save DCs that are too high, NPCs have tehm just a bit too high, and monsters usually have them way too low. So many spellcasting monsters with a Charisma of 16.

 

[Jeremy]

Originally posted by Pax
IMO, even that is a (tad) excessive. I should think the level-increases for attributes would be best spread around a bit. Touch of Dexterity here, a point of Constitution there, and so on.

I disagree. 3e D&D is very much built upon the premise of "rely on your team mates". Diversification does not generally pay in D&D unless you are playing groups of less than 4. Being good at what you do will help your group much more than being ok at what you do and really crappy at something else but with an additonal 2 stat points in it.

I mean really, since we're talking about wizards right now, what is going to help out the party fighter more, 5 points in intelligence from leveling for more greater magic weapons or a higher dc on the charm monster you're about to cast on his opponent, or 3 points of intelligence, 1 point of dex (for 1 point of AC), and 1 point of Con for 20 more hit points?

Given that at 20th level, 20 hit points could possibly be less than one hit, and 1 point of AC doesn't even come close to making up for your d4 hit dice... Does the fighter want his opponent charmed and your friend, or you standing next to him getting dropped so the opponent can cleave into the fighter?

IMO, 3e is built upon the premise of teamwork, and part of that is building on your strengths, not trying to shore up your weaknesses. Taking great fortitude and putting a point into con is not going to help a wizard make a fortitude save. Eliminating the enemy wizard in a single spell, thus preventing the fortitude save, will.

I find the game is most fun when EVERYONE excels at whatever it is they do. Then astounding feats of heroism are possible that lead to great war stories and story hours and "Wow! Do you remember the time"'s.

But again, that's just my opinion. I'm often wrong.

 

[Jeremy]

Side note: In my examples of saves I stuck with monsters and npc's, because that is what I thought the DC discussion pertained to.

If we are talking about npc wizards not beating PC saves, then my stances are somewhat reversed.

I've got multiple reasons, but it all boils down to fun.

As a DM, I have no fun when a PC dies. When the PC rolls his save or die and fails, I have no fun or satisfaction. I get to live with the dissapointment (or resentment) in that players eyes instead.

On the other hand, I love the excitement in their eyes of knowing a green ray just struck them and having a fairly safe bet of making the save but still knowing it's life or death.

That's why I like that NPC's have less gear (and IMC less access to prestige classes and high dollar equipment). I WANT the good guys to win. Evil is dastardly and well, EVIL enough to make the game plenty gritty and depressing on it's own. I don't want the combats to be a lose/lose scenario too! Good guys don't have the luxory of grabbing any bystander, putting a sword to the throat and knowing that by doing so, they are already giving pause to the heroes. They certainly don't generally have a host of family or relatives or friends or loved ones to track down and hold hostage or torture.

So I enjoy letting my bad guys occasionally be little more than mooks. It's fun for me to describe them flying left and right, and it's fun for them to be sending them flying!

 

[Pax]

I wouldn't want to see my wizard have a greater than 50% chance of failing a saving throw vs Finger of Death.

I wish there was some kind of rule giving out bonuses vs death effects ... but fighters find it really easy to make those kinds of saves, however.

There is: the DM shouldn't be trying for a TPK. Remember, in D&D ... death is temporary, and at that level, by standard rules ... 6000-ish gold, and you're only a True Resurrection away from popping back to perfect health.

I can't figure it out. What stats are being used?

Took the ones in the example I was quoted -- 12th level fighter. Which, I have since realised, was an unfair comparison -- 12th level fighter, against a 14th+ level sorceror (Disintegrate is a 7th level spell). Only a 1-point difference, but still.

 

[Pax]

I disagree. 3e D&D is very much built upon the premise of "rely on your team mates". Diversification does not generally pay in D&D unless you are playing groups of less than 4. Being good at what you do will help your group much more than being ok at what you do and really crappy at something else but with an additonal 2 stat points in it.

It's one thing to rely on one's team-mates.

It's anotehr thing to become a two-dimensinal cardboard cutout in the process.

I mean really, since we're talking about wizards right now, what is going to help out the party fighter more, 5 points in intelligence from leveling for more greater magic weapons or a higher dc on the charm monster you're about to cast on his opponent, or 3 points of intelligence, 1 point of dex (for 1 point of AC), and 1 point of Con for 20 more hit points?

More dexterity gives the wizard more initiative, to get the charm off before themonster eats a party member. Gives the wizard a much-needed +1 to hit with ranged atatcks -- like those ray spells and the like. Gives the wizard +1 to reflex saves.

More constitution gives more fortitude save, and more hitpoints -- both of which directly translate into the wizard living long enough to THROW more of those spells.

More charisma, while having no CLASS benefit, might be more of a CHARACTER issue. There ARE suave, less-than-super-egghead wizards out there, and some of htem might even be PC's.

Given that at 20th level, 20 hit points could possibly be less than one hit, and 1 point of AC doesn't even come close to making up for your d4 hit dice... Does the fighter want his opponent charmed and your friend, or you standing next to him getting dropped so the opponent can cleave into the fighter?

IMO, 3e is built upon the premise of teamwork, and part of that is building on your strengths, not trying to shore up your weaknesses. Taking great fortitude and putting a point into con is not going to help a wizard make a fortitude save. Eliminating the enemy wizard in a single spell, thus preventing the fortitude save, will.

I find the game is most fun when EVERYONE excels at whatever it is they do. Then astounding feats of heroism are possible that lead to great war stories and story hours and "Wow! Do you remember the time"'s.

But again, that's just my opinion. I'm often wrong.

It's one thing to excel at your "Schtick" ... it's another thing if your "Schtick" is the ONLY thing you can even ATTEMPT, save to generate comic relief.

 

[Victim]

Disintegrate is 6th level, not 7th.

Even if it's assumed by the rules, frequent ressurections seems stupid. Characters should die less often at high levels, not more.

 

[Jeremy]

I totally disagree Pax.

Why spend one of your 5 limited level up increases when you can simply cast a 20 hour endurance or cat's grace for even more to hit or to init?

And as for being a cardboard 2D cut out.... You're kidding right? These are wizards we are talking about! More spellcasting capability and potency fleshes them out more than anyone else out there. Anything someone can do with a skill, a stat, or an item, a wizard can do (sometimes better) with a spell.

Adding to INT directly adds to the versatility and concentrated focus of the wizard at the same time!

It means enough slots to have not only a horrid willting or two prepared but also enough room for a precognition or mass invisibility, or skitish nerves spell for a HUGE bonus to initiative, or stone skin for virtual hit points, or false life for actual hit points, or who knows how many other spells.

AND it makes your contribution to the party (you're there to help out remember?) more appreciated and more applicable.