Are Superior Weapons "worth it"?

[Herschel]

Something I was already thinking about when AbdulAlhazred mentioned it here http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/305909-why-thrown-weapons-so-underwhelming-3.html is since AV1 and the "MOAR DAMAGE ANIME R00XX0RS" weapons have they become essentially "worth it" or do "we" choose them because of their sexier weapon damage dice only?

Most characters I build I find are feat starved. Spending one on a Superior Weapon proficiency makes it even harder to do the things I want to do with a character. What does a Greatbow give you? A d10 to a d12. A War Axe? A weapon die size. Fullblade? Weapon die size and High Crit. While it's nice to give the early-edition-underused d12s some lovin' do they really make that much of a difference when it comes to having fun?

For example, I have a 17th-level Assault Swordmage. I'm still feeling I don't have enough feats for the fun stuff I want him to do. He still has a longsword because quite frankly I don't have the feat to spare for a point or two of damage some times.

My Skirmishing Warlord is now at third level. My first thought was "Hey, Greatbow, I may not get the extra +1 of the Superior Crossbow but it will save me a feat and give me a d12". The more I looked at it, the more I thought "Hey, I can save two feats by sticking with the Longbow and getting the same attack bonus as the Greatbow and the same damage as the Superior Crossbow." As level goes up and riders go up, the actual damage die means less and is the feat cost really worth it? Will I really notice the difference over the long haul?

I find I still look at the shiny Superior Weapons but more and more I find they're generally too high a cost for what I want to do in most cases. My Avenger? Yeah, it still has the Fullblade, as does my Barbarian (although that will likely change next weapon enhancement bonus).

Any thoughts?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It depends... I would be hard pressed to see a reason for a swordmages to spend a feat to go from d8 to d10.... But even dailys might be 1 or2 Ws. A barbarian with lots of 3-7Ws on the other hand...


The diff between 1d8 and 1d10 is small 2d8 and 2d10 still nearly noticeable but 3d12 or 6d6(brutal) is slightly more noticeable at 5 it is even with a light blade... 5d6 or 5d8

 

[keterys]

There are very few cases in which it does not eventually become worth it.

Especially if you're two-handed or a spear or flail wielder.

 

[renau1g]

What do you mean "worth it"? If you mean better than weapon focus, yes I think with more higher [W] powers as well as the various crit enhancers at Epic it does become better (especially the high crit ones). Avengers have no reason not to try and grab a high crit weapon as they're far more likely roll that crit (as you mention)

IMO the swordmage is one of the least likely classes to take it as they already have the +3 proficiency bonus to hit and their powers do only minimal damage so there's no need for the benefit. Personally, I find the Shielding SM's as the "purest" defender out there. Warlord's probably the other one as long as he carries a +3 weapon (usually longsword) to have the better to hit he's good.

 

[tiornys]

For weapon using strikers (that actually do [W] damage, so not Monks), I think a superior weapon is almost always a good investment. The sole exception is the Rogue, because his design both restricts his weapon choices and reduces the relative value of high [W].

For defenders, I think a superior weapon is sometimes worth it. If you can get one as part of package deal (Dwarven Weapon Training and similar feats), the package is definitely worth it. Fighters frequently benefit, because they have a lot of high [W] powers, and because their mark enforcement is based partly on the damage their weapon deals. Wardens a little less so--they also have [W] dependency on their mark enforcement, but don't tend to have as many [W]'s in their powers. The other defenders have significantly less reliance on their [W], making the investment much less attractive for them.

For leaders and controllers, I think a superior weapon is only occasionally worthwhile. It's worthwhile if, for whatever reason, you're trying to increase your personal damage output. That is sometimes a good goal for these roles, but most of the time it's a secondary concern at best. It can also be worthwhile if the upgrade grants an accuracy increase--and I'm thinking specifically of the Greatspear for Eladrin here, because they get it as part of a package deal, and it's the only +3 prof. polearm, the only +3 prof. spear, and one of only two +3 prof. reach weapons (honorable mention to the Superior Crossbow, which is the only +3 prof. weapon with significant range, but requires two feats for full utilization).

t~

 

[Herschel]

What do you mean "worth it"? If you mean better than weapon focus, yes I think with more higher [W] powers as well as the various crit enhancers at Epic it does become better (especially the high crit ones). Avengers have no reason not to try and grab a high crit weapon as they're far more likely roll that crit (as you mention)

IMO the swordmage is one of the least likely classes to take it as they already have the +3 proficiency bonus to hit and their powers do only minimal damage so there's no need for the benefit. Personally, I find the Shielding SM's as the "purest" defender out there. Warlord's probably the other one as long as he carries a +3 weapon (usually longsword) to have the better to hit he's good.

I have yet to have a character with Weapon Focus either (outside of a one level trial, quickly re-trained). I will go for the Superior Weapon over the Focus feat.

I'm kind of with Tiornys, but I'm still on the fence with my Barbarian (for example) simply because there's so much I want out of the character (multiclass Warlord goodies aside from Thaneborn "stuff"). I love the "sexiness' of the Fullblade for him, but I picture it as a Greatsword is supposed to look in my head (because I HATE that oversized crap look) and it just gets me pondering.

 

[renau1g]

I must respectfully disagree with you Tiornys about controllers. Accurate implements are amongst one of the best feats you can take (speaking from a power-level perspective). Your control effects (usually) need to hit to work so a +1 to hit is probably one of your most important feat choices.

So Herschel are you asking from an optimization perspective? If so, then yes, for many classes it's worth it to upgrade, especially from a +2 to +3 proficiency (spears) or the accurate implements for controllers. From a non-optimizing perspective, then no, whatever feats are the "best" for your character are the ones you should select. IMO.

 

[WalterKovacs]

If you have martial proficiencies:

Expertise > Superior Weapon > Focus [you aren't getting a +3 axe or a +4 blade, so you are increasing damage, not proficiency when going to a superior weapon, for the most part]. The damage bonus is always going to be better than focus.

If you have only simple weapon profs, superior is a much bigger jump. There isn't much choice for +3 prof with simple weapons, so you may actually take a weapon prof before expertise (since you can easily get better prof AND damage with a single feat). There is also reach (if you want a +3 reach weapon, you have to grab a superior weapon).

So, in terms of raw numbers (to hit and damage) it's better than most damage boosting effects (most either stack with focus but are worse that focus, like twf, or they stack and are better, but only in some situations, like vs. prone, etc). Compared to stuff that gives you bonuses to hit (including new ways to get C/A, etc) it's not the best option, but a good one (since it can also increase damage, especially for non-martial prof characters).

With defensive feats, you are generally going to be doing better with those feats BUT, you do have the ability to get a 1-handed weapon that is as good as, or better than, a two-hander which allows you to use a shield. There are also some defensive weapons which stacks with twdefense. For AC, the ability to use a shield, or grab the defensive property is pretty good ... you don't get many other ways to boost AC. For reflex though, there are better feats to improve those defenses.

Evaluating how good they are compared to say improving your healing word, gaining powers from another class, bonus to initiative, riders to your at-wills, etc ... that's harder to evaluate. But for the simple modifier to hit, damage, defense ... it's a pretty solid choice.

 

[WalterKovacs]

I must respectfully disagree with you Tiornys about controllers. Accurate implements are amongst one of the best feats you can take (speaking from a power-level perspective). Your control effects (usually) need to hit to work so a +1 to hit is probably one of your most important feat choices.

He didn't really mention implements ... so controller wise the only weapon wielders would be seekers and hunters, in the latter case they get the free reload as a class feature and would gladly grab the +3 superior crossbow to increase proficiency, as they already have the expertise feat for free too (that's what the hunter in my game did). Based on what he was saying, the implecation is he'd agree with you, he just restricted the topic to weapons.

 

[DarkMasterBR]

All I know is that a ranger with a d12 Greatbow is a beautiful sight to behold.