Are Superior Weapons "worth it"?

[The Human Target]

It depends on how much you care about being as mechanically strong as possible.

My parties Skirmishing Warlord is glad he spent the feat for the greatbow.

 

[Herschel]

So Herschel are you asking from an optimization perspective? If so, then yes, for many classes it's worth it to upgrade, especially from a +2 to +3 proficiency (spears) or the accurate implements for controllers. From a non-optimizing perspective, then no, whatever feats are the "best" for your character are the ones you should select. IMO.

I'm thinking about it from an overall character perspective. I never try for a full-out "optimized" character because they're too limited in scope for me. I generally look for something around maybe "70% optimized" as a term/goal. Generally speaking, I will always favor accuracy over raw damage numbers. I prefer Expertise over focus or superior weapon type unless something fits my idea better.

For example, I wanted a Seeker who throws sickles and can step in to melee and take some heat off the defender, as needed. In this case the only thing that really fit my wants was a Talenta Sharesh, but I am depending upon enchantments (Farbond Spellblade, in this case) to get what I want: a +3 thrown weapon that preferably looks like a sickle and has better than a d4 damage die, and preferably a d6. In this case I went straight for the Superior Weapon because it fit what I was looking for when I got access to the enchantment. Plus, throwing seekers can be ridiculously accurate prior to expertise. As a bonus, I can also take Hafted Defense to help the AC for those melee forays. But ooops, another feat slot needed.

I could have stuck with the Drow Long Knife, but I have flavor issues with that one too, but it does give me the +3 proficiency bonus I desire.

With the Warlord, I'd love to have a +3 proficiency, but simply don't want to spend two feats in order to make it work. I could go throwing with the Drow Long Knife, but again, flavor issues, range issues and even feelings of damage issues as well as still needing the feat slot.

 

[phoffman]

Superior weapon feats primarily mean an average damage increase of 1 to 1.5.
The other damage increasing feats increase like weapon focus, two weapon fighting all give 1 point of damage increase.

For casters superior implements is a way to get +1 more hit. This would be beyond the implement expertise.

 

[Nullzone]

There's an interesting chart in the Avenger's guide on the CharOp forums that breaks down the DPR increases of various feats at each tier:

So while Weapon Focus scales in an absolutely linear fashion, getting higher weapon dice will almost always help you out more as you level up and get more and more [W] on your attacks, as well as getting additional attacks per round. It's basically an extension of the same logic of why 2d6 is better than 1d12, law of averages + standard deviation work in your favor.

 

[Herschel]

It depends on how much you care about being as mechanically strong as possible.

My parties Skirmishing Warlord is glad he spent the feat for the greatbow.

The question is what is as "mechanically strong" as possible?

I'll use the Warlord as an example. At 4th level do I want a Greatbow, Expertise and Weapon Focus so I do the most damage myself, or do I want to stick with the longbow and grab Harrowing Swarm Student, Expertise and Inspiring Shot, for example. In the first I average a couple more points of damage with Paint The Bulls Eye but in the second I give the target a -2 to hit, the damage boost to others is the same and my Ispring Words heal four extra HP.

With the first I could use Risky Shot more, but then I'm more like a wannabe striker with a couple of mediocre heals. Is that really what a Warlord is?

 

[BobTheNob]

A little more inconsequential but often overlooked is also the crit implications. Its not much, I know, but when that 4W hits with a long sword, it gives you 32 damage. When that same attack crits with a barstard sword its 40 damage. That very example cropped up repeatedly in our epic campaign.

So, it you are going to invest in getting your crit rating down, its gets a little (repeat...little) bit of advantage.

Also, the upgrades that add brutal (Craghammer, executioners axe) are well worth it. Our paladin, who had a pathological hatred of rolling 1 on a d12, praised his executioners axe many a time.

 

[ceiling90]

Superior Weapons are a must for anyone that relies on multiple [W]'s, it's the simplest way to boost damage; also many superior weapons have nifty properties, or trade in that damage boost for an accuracy boost; that extra 5%, while is harder to notice, does considerably more than 1.5 points per [W] in the long run.

I don't see the need for them if your character doesn't really rely on them, though controllers end up having to spend a feat on essentially the same thing only in implement form.

Overall, I would simply use the feat to get a weapon that has more accuracy at least, or better properties than the ones I already have proficiency. Though most weapon users tend to have at least a decent selection right off the bat; mostly in heavy and light blades. Anything else, the feat is probably a must have.

Note: I'm vaguely offended on the "moar damage anime Roxxors" thing... I don't see why I can't wield a blade the size of a man to kill a god, if you can throw fireballs and balls of force that seek out targets, or call upon the powers of the gods to burn your enemies.

 

[Herschel]

There's an interesting chart in the Avenger's guide on the CharOp forums that breaks down the DPR increases of various feats at each tier:

So while Weapon Focus scales in an absolutely linear fashion, getting higher weapon dice will almost always help you out more as you level up and get more and more [W] on your attacks, as well as getting additional attacks per round. It's basically an extension of the same logic of why 2d6 is better than 1d12, law of averages + standard deviation work in your favor.

But again, DPR isn't the be-all, end-all of the game. This is where 3E+ really blurred the lines between RPGs, Video Games and Board Games, and not in a good way IMO. Is 1.13 to 4.3 damage (and this based on the highest accuracy hitter in the game) really going to be missing when you're facing a baddie with 3,000 HP if it doesn't help the team as a whole work better?

 

[mneme]

@Hershel -- team bonuses are force multipliers; damage bonuses are additive. But damage bonuses with big numbers on them (which certainly includes Superior weapons) are the easiest way to get something to multiply.

A ranger armed with war axes is going to be making 4-6 attacks a round (more in a burst round) in most rounds of a combat, at least once you hit high heroic. So that +2 damage from the bastard swords turns into 8, 12, or more damage a round (or 24 damage minimum in epic, where all your attacks are 2W or better)

More, many striker strategies involve crit optimization at some point -- a ranger with multiple attacks, an Avenger (or multiclassing into Avenger) for a few rounds of double rolls, bards handing out automatic crits -- et cetera. And superior weapons have a -big- advantage in crit optimization, as few CO strategies don't involve gaining High Crit at some point--and high crit is both easier to get with superior weapons like war axes and fullblades (although there is greataxe; one of the best martial weapons in the game if you can get +hit somewhere else) and sets its effectiveness based on the weapon damage die. In paragon, a war axe with Deadly Axe is doing an additional 13 damage per crit, plus another 4 damage per W vs a longsword--so about 25 extra damage per crit on encoutner attacks, and 17 on at wills.

Regarding that avenger--well, the crit optimization is even stronger there. And any extra damage the Avenger does is going to be force multiplied to the nines, both on the multi-attacks (hammer of the forge, Fury's Advance) the Avenger pretty much automatically takes if they want to be an effective striker, and on being handed extra attacks (or free crits) by the leader.

 

[Puggins]

If you're not overly concerned with increased damage, then the fullblade is optional, at best. However, any superior weapon that is +1 to hit is absolutely worth it, for a variety of reasons.

(1) It is a big damage increase, yes. In many cases a lot more than weapon focus or other +damage feat. But like I said, this may not be a big deal...

(2) ... but effects almost always are. your encounter power with a great rider effect will completely fizzle on a miss, taking that cool rider effect along with it. a bonus to attack yields one less time that your effect is lost. This is fairly loosely related to reason #3...

(3) ... Missing is no fun. This is absolutely the best reason to get as many attack bonuses as possible. If your character is a single target type of character and he misses his one attack in the round, that's 15 to 30 minutes that you have to wait to roll more dice, or to manipulate the battlefield, or to buff your allies with a rider. Whatever you wanted to do, you didn't get to do, which sucks. My characters tend to be multi-attack characters with very high attack bonuses, not because I want to be the baddest character on the table, but because I want to have an impact.