Are there too few known encounter powers?

[jeffhartsell]

The concensus is that capping with 4 encounter powers at 11th is plenty. So maybe having two encounter powers at 1st and then at 3rd picking which one to upgrade to a 3rd level power would help make the lower levels less @w spammy.

 

[lutecius]

Its not a huge thing, but I kind of wish they kept more of Bo9S, and let you know many at-will/encounter powers, but only let you prep a few at a time. They only did that for wizard dailies...

This is so Vancian.

A better approach would be to go "sorcerer" and let you pick an encounter or daily power you know on the fly. This would make powers more circumstantial and would obviate the re-training inconsistencies and would make the future splatcore books more useful.

One could argue that it would cause balance issues, but new powers will creep in anyway so at least you won't be scrwed when they publish better powers than the one you've already picked.

Another side effect would be to pimp Int, because from what we know, it doesn't look as useful as the other stats unless it's your class' core ability.

 

[kennew142]

Maybe I'll feel different once I've played 4e for a while, but I can't see the limited number of encounter powers as a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with using at-will abilities half of the time in combat.

 

[IceFractal]

The problem I see is that in a long fight you could easily run out of all your encounter powers and be stuck using only at-wills to finish the fight. At that point, for many characters, there are no more actual decisions to be made - which IMO makes the rest of the fight pointless. If your actions are predetermined, you're not even playing a game, you're just killing time.


Now it's been pointed out that several classes in 3E had this problem much more than any 4E class does. However, to me, and probably a fair number of people, this was irrelevant, because I didn't play characters without options (and spellcasters are not the only way to have options).

It's like a buffet where half the stuff is incredibly delicious, and the other half is flavorless survival rations. Then they replace it with a buffet where everything is average quality, fairly tasty but nothing special. If for some reason you were eating the survival rations before, this would seem like an improvement. But if you were eating the good stuff before, it's a downgrade.

Now before anybody jumps on this, I'm not even talking 4E in general, just the relevant number of options in combat specifically.

 

[Blackeagle]

The problem I see is that in a long fight you could easily run out of all your encounter powers and be stuck using only at-wills to finish the fight. At that point, for many characters, there are no more actual decisions to be made - which IMO makes the rest of the fight pointless.

I don't know how easy it's going to be to run out of options. Encounter and at-will powers aren't the only options. There's also the daily and utility powers. I'm actually more worried about characters not using their encounter powers as much as they could because they want to save them for a later situation where they might be more useful. Now this could just be the group I play with (and the lingering effect of 3e when all powers are daily) but I think we'll probably see at-will powers used more toward the beginning of a fight, with encounters and daily powers reserved for getting out of tight situations and finishing moves.

Even if you do run out of encounter powers, every character has at least two at-will abilities (more if they're human or get some from items), so there's always at least one choice to be made. Moreover, we don't really have the full combat system yet. I'm guessing there will still be plenty of non-power combat choices (disarms, grapples, making use of the environment, etc.) that aren't as powerful as powers but still provide options.

 

[jeffhartsell]

Hmmm. 7th-level 4e wizard effectively has 2 cantrips, 5 encounter powers (2 are at-will) and 4 daily powers (2 are utility) and will be able to do some swapping of daily powers. With 4 encounters per day she can do 1 daily per encounter along with the other stuff every encounter.

A 3e 7th-level wizard probably has 14 daily powers plus some cantrips (4/5/4/3/2). With 4 encounters per day and if each is 4-5 rounds you don't have enough powers to last the day. And you probably did some sandbagging and held back some 3rd or 4th level spells on the off chance you might need them later in the day.

Seems like a decent trade to get more encounter powers but less daily powers.

But I am still not sold that adding 1 more encounter power to the mix at 1st level for a max of 5 instead of 4 will tip the scale away from needing to use at-will powers.

 

[Blackeagle]

But I am still not sold that adding 1 more encounter power to the mix at 1st level for a max of 5 instead of 4 will tip the scale away from needing to use at-will powers.

Is that a bad thing? I think you should have to use your at-wills at least some of the time in pretty much every combat. You should probably be using them more than your encounter powers. I wouldn't want to go ten rounds of just using at wills, but in a ten round fight I wouldn't be upset if I used at-wills five times (at least not if they were spread out throughout the fight rather than being bunched up at the beginning or the end).

 

[jeffhartsell]

Agree with posters that at-will powers have to stay in play. Looking at first level... 2 @w, 1 /e, and 1 /d. In a 6 round fight that is 5 @w and 1 /e. Maybe you toss in the daily.

I'd like to have seen 2 encounter powers at 1st. Then at 3rd either you get a bonus 3rd and keep the two 1st powers or you drop 1 of the 1st in favor of the new 3rd level power.

By 6-7th-level things will play out better with magic and multiple types of powers. But I still see levels 1-5 having similar issues to previous editions. Spam my attack, but now I have 2 choices instead of 1 and the sandbag until I need to toss out an encounter or daily.

Anyway, that first level just feels like... here, have 1 cool power you can use every fight until you grow up. The daily is the "get out of jail" power and the at-will powers are standard DnD attacks with some flavor. The encounter powers are what really make a class stand out.

Yeah yeah... commander's strike makes the warlord different from the fighter's cleave. But spamming those is not nearly as fun as having signature encounter powers.

A reminder I'm a DnD 4e fan boy. This is just one of those cases where I see an area that might need some TLC. Sort of like putting a just enough extra toppings on the pizza you already love as to not spoil it, but make it a wee bit better.

 

[Blackeagle]

By 6-7th-level things will play out better with magic and multiple types of powers. But I still see levels 1-5 having similar issues to previous editions. Spam my attack, but now I have 2 choices instead of 1 and the sandbag until I need to toss out an encounter or daily.

Anyway, that first level just feels like... here, have 1 cool power you can use every fight until you grow up. The daily is the "get out of jail" power and the at-will powers are standard DnD attacks with some flavor. The encounter powers are what really make a class stand out.

On the other hand, you don't want the game to be totally Diabloed where 20th level is just like 1st, but with bigger numbers. I think the increasing number of encounter/daily/utility powers may be part of what makes gaining those levels feel like progress.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

What gets me isn't so much that PCs can only use a few encounter powers per encounter, but that, at low levels at least, they have few choices. IMO the cleric and paladin are more interesting to play by virtue Channel Divinity, which gives them more options.