Are there too few known encounter powers?

[jeffhartsell]

On the other hand, you don't want the game to be totally Diabloed where 20th level is just like 1st, but with bigger numbers. I think the increasing number of encounter/daily/utility powers may be part of what makes gaining those levels feel like progress.

Agree. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th all have new powers so you will feel like you are getting more powerful. But even if you had that same progression but started with two first level encounter powers instead of 1, the "getting better" vibe would not go away... at least, I am guessing it would not

Starting with more powers will be something to try after a year of 4e under our belts and a few splat books out with new options.

People are making good points about the number of encounter powers, but I'm still not a convert that starting with 2 encounters powers is *bad*. This is where having someone with R&D insight would be handying to hear from. Why capping encounter powers at 4 and why only start with 1 encounter power? You max at 4 encounter powers at 11th... that is a long way to 30 to just keep swapping out powers instead of getting a 5th power.

 

[AtomicPope]

Hmmm. 7th-level 4e wizard effectively has 2 cantrips, 5 encounter powers (2 are at-will) and 4 daily powers (2 are utility) and will be able to do some swapping of daily powers. With 4 encounters per day she can do 1 daily per encounter along with the other stuff every encounter.

A 3e 7th-level wizard probably has 14 daily powers plus some cantrips (4/5/4/3/2). With 4 encounters per day and if each is 4-5 rounds you don't have enough powers to last the day. And you probably did some sandbagging and held back some 3rd or 4th level spells on the off chance you might need them later in the day.

Seems like a decent trade to get more encounter powers but less daily powers.

But I am still not sold that adding 1 more encounter power to the mix at 1st level for a max of 5 instead of 4 will tip the scale away from needing to use at-will powers.

You're not taking into account that many of the so called "Daily Powers" of a 3e Wizard are less than the equivalent of an At Will 4e power. Ray of Frost is an At Will power that slows an opponent for one turn with no save.

Wizards from 3e don't have any powers to control the fight that are this good. The save for 1st level spells is obsolete by 7th level unless you've taken feats to boost the DC. The Magic Missile for a 3e Wizard still isn't as good at 7th level as a 4e Wizard, plus it's not at will. Heck, it takes a 20th level 3e Wizard's MM to be as good as the MM from a 7th level 4e Wizard. It's because 3e Wizards don't add Int or Implement bonus to their spells.

The fact is, spells scale with every character level. There's no more caster level/spell level to muck up the numbers. The "DC" of spells in 4e improves rapidly to prevent obsolescence from occurring. At 1st level "Daily" from 3e that allowed a save was garbage at higher levels. This cannot be ignored as it points to a fundamental flaw in the system.

 

[AtomicPope]

Agree. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th all have new powers so you will feel like you are getting more powerful. But even if you had that same progression but started with two first level encounter powers instead of 1, the "getting better" vibe would not go away... at least, I am guessing it would not

Starting with more powers will be something to try after a year of 4e under our belts and a few splat books out with new options.

Agree. Houseruling w/o playtesting, the DM is begging to cause trouble.

People are making good points about the number of encounter powers, but I'm still not a convert that starting with 2 encounters powers is *bad*. This is where having someone with R&D insight would be handying to hear from. Why capping encounter powers at 4 and why only start with 1 encounter power? You max at 4 encounter powers at 11th... that is a long way to 30 to just keep swapping out powers instead of getting a 5th power.

Here's something I don't think anyone has pointed out:

The entire party gets powers.


Remember, this is not 3e (it's not even 2e or 1e). When the entire party levels the entire party improves. It's not like in earlier editions where at 5th level all of a sudden the Wizard became a bad mofo because he can toss fireballs. Now everyone gets their own version of a fireball. It's not like the fighter will always to 1D8+Str. When the fighter gets a new level, they get a new power. Adding additional encounter powers will most likely provide the PC's with too much firepower.

In 4e all PC's are capable of doing damage. In previous editions there were many "suck" classes that really didn't do anything. Blanket immunities are gone allowing at least some damage to trickle through. Add extrapowers, that are boosted with stats+feats+gear and the monsters don't stand a chance. It's like fishing with dynamite

 

[Sphyre]

If a fight lasts 6-10 rounds, you will spend very little time forced to use your at wills. Between dailies, item powers, racial powers, etc.

I concur with this. Encounter powers are ones you'll want to use every encounter. Why? Because they are the biggest bang for the buck for the least amount of resource expenditure. You get it back your next encounter, so there's no reason not to use them. If you have too many then at-wills are useless because they're underpowered compared to your essentially unlimited (because you have too many to use them all) per encounter powers. Tack on the per day stuff, other encounter and other milestone powers that you get from items, class features, races and feats it seems like the number of encounter powers is actually in a sweet spot.

Of course, we can't tell until playing the game, but from the look of it, there's a lot more options, not less.

 

[jeffhartsell]

The power of persuasion. And it was not even close. Not maybe people want to see even just ONE more power added. And no one said few powers. This was odd to see in a thread where typicially people have opinions all over the place.