Are there "typical" spell lists available?

[mvincent]

Recommendation from a Dragon magazine article:
When making enemy spellcasters, just select 3 spells from the highest level they can cast (and they can even be the same spell if desired), and that it what the spellcaster uses for the battle. On the off chance that the spellcaster survives more than 3 rounds (rare), she'll probably want to run anyways, or fight with a weapon or magic item or somesuch.

imo: The trickiest situation is when a spellcaster has several rounds to buff before attacking the PC's. DM's should either stay away from those situations or prepare them fully in advance... unless they are particularly experienced and are very familiar what sort of buffs would be used, or still have a list from earlier enemy spellcaster preparations (i.e. including all modifiers).

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually, Monte Cook made an interesting point in one of his Dungeoncraft columns: because most combat only last a few rounds, there is no point in preparing an entire spell list for a caster. Just pick 3-5 key spells and assume those are the ones he casts during the fight. (If the spellcaster has very high Int, you can fudge in his favor by letting him cast any spell on his list, assuming he would have been smart enough to prepare it in advance.)

Recommendation from a Dragon magazine article:
When making enemy spellcasters, just select 3 spells from the highest level they can cast (and they can even be the same spell if desired), and that it what the spellcaster uses for the battle. On the off chance that the spellcaster survives more than 3 rounds (rare), she'll probably want to run anyways, or fight with a weapon or magic item or somesuch.

Why would a non-divine spell caster ever want to fight with a weapon?

Do these WotC and ex-WotC people actually play the game?

First off, many combats do last more than 3 rounds if you have intelligently played NPCs.

Second, combat shifts quickly. A Fireball might work in round one, but it is doubtful that it will work in round three. NPC spell casters have to adapt just like PC spell casters have to adapt. You cannot do this well as a DM unless either a) you have a pretty extensive spell list prepared or b) you want to fudge the spell selection during combat.

 

[Nail]

many combats do last more than 3 rounds if you have intelligently played NPCs.

I'll second that.

Often the best Round #1 tactic is an AoE spell.

For Round #2, the Wiz is probably best served by the highest level defensive spell he can muster (Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility, Wall of Stone, etc)....unless a target is especially vulnerable, in which case a targeted spell is in order.

The best tactic for Round #3 is "remove and regroup": that is, for the Wiz to move his general position to a radically different location. (I'm always surprised how effective "behind the party of PCs" is!) It's often by round #3 that the PCs have finally closed or triangulated on the Wiz......and there will be none of that for an intelligently played spell-caster!

Round #4 and beyond is too variable to predict beforehand....although I've found another AoE spell - like EBT, Fireball, or even Obscuring Mist - to be a good bet.

Do most of your BBEG spell casters only last 3 rounds?

 

[mvincent]

Why would a non-divine spell caster ever want to fight with a weapon?.

Many pre-made adventures have arcane magic users burning through wands, staves and scrolls (i.e. the PC's loot).

Do these WotC and ex-WotC people actually play the game?

First off, many combats do last more than 3 rounds if you have intelligently played NPCs.

I play the game. A lot. This method has actually saved me considerable time and made my game more flexible. It has allowed players to travel away from pre-planned events and do their own thing without having to stop the game for me to re-prep.

It's been very useful to me. Why ya gotta be so negative? The "advice" I've previously seen from you has been pretty suspect. Why ya wanna ruin things for others?

 

[KarinsDad]

I play the game. A lot. This method has actually saved me considerable time and made my game more flexible. It has allowed players to travel away from pre-planned events and do their own thing without having to stop the game for me to re-prep.

It's been very useful to me. Why ya gotta be so negative? The "advice" I've previously seen from you has been pretty suspect. Why ya wanna ruin things for others?

People who disagree with you are negative???


As for players moving to other things, this is something all DMs must prepare for. But, DND is no longer a simple game, especially at mid to high levels.

If the players encounter a monster, no big deal. Open up the Monster Manual.

If they encounter an NPC spell caster, then why in the world would you want to only write down a few spells? Do you not give the NPC spell caster feats? Skills? Items? Ability scores? Equipment? Allies? Etc., etc., etc.?

How as a DM can you make reasonable decisions for your spell casters if you water them down to a few select prepared spells?


The OP is asking for "spells prepared" lists. You are giving him advice on how not to need those and I opine that your advice is suspect in that it can lead to boring repetitive encounters with NPC spell casters. How can a DM make challenging decisions for an NPC spell caster based on the situation at hand if he does not have his options listed (without resorting to fudging)?

I am also of the opinion that encounters, especially with NPC spell casters, often do not (and should not if you play them well) last only 3 rounds. Encounters with opponents with few special abilities should only last a few rounds. Encounters with spell casters (or any opponent with a lot of special abilities) should last a lot more than 3 rounds by definition (they are spell casters after all, the main advantage PCs have over NPCs), hence, your suggestion seems to be counter intuitive and incorrect. A short cut designed to suck the very flavor and versatility out of the NPC spell casting class being played.

 

[KarinsDad]

Do most of your BBEG spell casters only last 3 rounds?

Most of my encounters last more than 3 rounds. Most of my BBEG spell casters are reoccurring villains who keep coming back for more. Not only do they typically last for more than 3 rounds per combat (and often more than 6 rounds), they also typically last for more than 3 combats. It's great fun for the players when they finally drop a BBEG spell caster for the last time.

I've had NPC spell casters cast 15+ (non-swift) spells in a combat already. That's about the top end. The average is probably 6 to 8 rounds, but I've also seen a PC Fighter type take out an opponent NPC Cleric in a single round. It all depends on the situation and the luck of the dice.

 

[mvincent]

People who disagree with you are negative?

You weren't disagreeing with me (as I didn't write the article) so much as needlessly maligning WotC writers, and advising others to dismiss a tip that had proved helpful to several experienced players.

Note that I had no problem with the second part of your post (which offered information), just the first part (which sneered at offered information without considering the useful parts of it, even though you never actually read the article... which gave a more complete explanation than I desire to). By their nature, subjective tips are going to be viewed as good by some, and bad by some. You focused only the negative aspects of the information (i.e. the parts that may not fit someone's game), rather than the positive ones (i.e. the parts that could be useful). I don't feel that helps (and I've seen you do this before).

Back on topic:
Yes, of course battles can last longer than than 3 rounds. The comment that a spellcaster won't last very long was said partially in jest, but still an experienced party will tend to eliminate him first, or at least hinder him from casting spells each round. I've found that planning for three highest level spells gives me a good feel for running the battle, and other spells can be added as needed. The point being that it is better to know exactly what those three spells do than to have a list of options that you'll have to look up each round.

Suggesting to novice DM's that they need fully fleshed out (and planned for) spell lists seems like a lot to ask of them, and can be ultimately self-defeating as they may not get a chance to really study up on any of those spells.

Note that even players (which typically have their PC's spell lists in rote memory) are not expected to use more than three of their highest level spells during any given battle.

 

[KarinsDad]

Suggesting to novice DM's that they need fully fleshed out (and planned for) spell lists seems like a lot to ask of them, and can be ultimately self-defeating as they may not get a chance to really study up on any of those spells.

CH has over 4000 posts here. I do not consider him to be a novice.

Note that even players (which typically have their PC's spell lists in rote memory) are not expected to use more than three of their highest level spells during any given battle.

No. They are expected to use their best spells for the situation at hand, not necessarily three of their highest level spells during any given battle. In fact, mid to high level spell casters who tend to use three of their highest level spells in many combats will not survive for long and limiting any spell caster to their highest level spells is handicapping them.

Why people expect NPC spell casters to act less effective than PCs is beyond me. How do NPC spell casters survive to get to their level if they act ineffectively?


It would seem that CH wants typical spell lists so that he can present unexpected encounters and still make them seem plausible (i.e. the three highest level spells are not cast every single time, rather, the most effective for the situation spells are cast).

 

[mvincent]

Why people expect NPC spell casters to act less effective than PCs is beyond me.

NPC's don't normally plan on participating in more than one combat per day.

 

[KarinsDad]

NPC's don't normally plan on participating in more than one combat per day.

What's your point? That NPCs should only have 3 good spells available per day?


My point is that spells are like guns, and spell casters are like wild west gunfighters. Sure, an NPC might not want to fight. But, anyone out there can be gunning for one, especially if he is a) evil, b) wealthy, c) in a position of power, and/or d) in a position to annoy some other powerful group (i.e. have enemies).

So again, why would people who have the power of rocket launchers at the tip of their fingers (who took a while to acquire that level of power) be stupid enough to plan on only one combat per day and a quick 3 round one at that?

That's not roleplaying. That's expediency for the sake of a silly DM shortcut. A caster with 40 spells can still be prepared with 10 offensive ones and 10 defensive ones, even if he is planning on doing a lot of other miscellaneous stuff on a given day.