Are things like Intimidate/Bluff/Diplomacy too easy?
- Thread starter NewJeffCT
- Start date
In part of the thread I pointed out that magic is special and the use of it can change things.
But skills alone should not be able to break suspension of disbelief. By that the I mean some social skills are not going to work the same way on every NPC. The example I used was intimidate.
You are trying to scare a cult member into telling you where the secret ceremony is going down depending on who the cultist is it might work or it might not.
Say the cultist is in for the group sex and is basically a coward. Like the one character in the movie the Mummy who joins Impothep to save his slimy life. Then in my game intimidate will work just as the RAW says. Make you roll if it is enough he will tell you.
But say your prisoner is a devout follower of the cult really believes in its goals. Is willing to die for those goals. It is going to be almost impossible to use intimidate to betray the cult. Now tricking him might work.
Jimlock
Adventurer
A DC for such a case should be astronomical. Still, by the time you have PCs able to make such checks with real chances of success, you'll also have casters with Charm Monster, Dominate Person etc etc...
JamesonCourage
Adventurer
That's true, but there's a few things that you should remember about those spells, or magic in general.
First things first: according to the rules, the Bluff skill doesn't work in that manner. Secondly, Diplomacy and Intimidate affect NPC attitudes, but they do not allow you to dictate NPC actions. The Charm spells do the same thing.
The Dominate spells are powerful, but allow for clauses where the creatures do not carry out obviously harmful effects, and also get a new saving throw at a bonus to negate the spell if ordered to perform an action that goes against its nature.
However, the spells get a saving throw, where the skills do not, which I think was the original point of NewJeffCT when he made this thread. It's true that the Charm and Dominate spells will be very effective against creatures with low Will saves. There's no objection to that from me. However, any creature that maxes out something like Diplomacy can affect all creatures, regardless of level or hit die, just as easily. By RAW, and with only the PHB, I can get +23 to Diplomacy as a half-elf by level 3. No flaws, for extra feats. No splat books. Just the core PHB, +23 to Diplomacy by level 3 (and that's not counting in age bonuses or anything).
This causes a problem. People don't use the term "diplomancer" for no reason. If I can take someone from Hostile (will take risks to hurt me) to Indifferent (doesn't care much) on a natural 2 or better at level 3, no matter how high level the creature is, with no save, that becomes a balancing issue.
No, it's true that I can't dictate his actions. But I've definitely influenced his attitude towards me. Maybe I have to make the check in 1 round, rather than with a full minute. I take a -10 penalty to my Diplomacy. That means that at level 3 my half-elf bard can make that check on any creature he meets on a natural 12 or better. That's 45% of the time. 45% of the time, the level 3 half-elf bard is so good at saying something within 6 second that Asmodeus himself (or Orcus, if you prefer) goes from "will take risks to hurt you" to "doesn't care much." That's massive.
That's why I think it's able to be abused. No, you can't dictate NPC actions. You can, however, reliably make NPCs act much more civilly to you, even by level 3. An unlimited number of times per day. To any creature, regardless of power. With no save.
So, yes, Charm and Dominate spells are powerful, but Diplomacy, as written, isn't balanced with them (in my opinion), it far exceeds them.
But, hey, that's just my two cents. As always, play what you like
Last edited:
JC summed up pretty much how I feel about this. I wanted to add that in my opinion magic should be powerful and do things better than something non magical.
Now I know that idea bugs a lot of people and I have read numerous threads about here. How it is so unfair to the non casters.
I don't agree maybe because in the 30 years I have been playing I have never heard anyone at a table I play at or DM at complain about it or refuse to play a non magical character.
JamesonCourage
Adventurer
Not sure if this is directed at me, but if it is, I'm not sure if you caught it in my post:
However, the spells get a saving throw, where the skills do not, which I think was the original point of NewJeffCT when he made this thread. It's true that the Charm and Dominate spells will be very effective against creatures with low Will saves. There's no objection to that from me. However, any creature that maxes out something like Diplomacy can affect all creatures, regardless of level or hit die, just as easily. By RAW, and with only the PHB, I can get +23 to Diplomacy as a half-elf by level 3. No flaws, for extra feats. No splat books. Just the core PHB, +23 to Diplomacy by level 3 (and that's not counting in age bonuses or anything).
No, it's true that I can't dictate his actions. But I've definitely influenced his attitude towards me. Maybe I have to make the check in 1 round, rather than with a full minute. I take a -10 penalty to my Diplomacy. That means that at level 3 my half-elf bard can make that check on any creature he meets on a natural 12 or better. That's 45% of the time. 45% of the time, the level 3 half-elf bard is so good at saying something within 6 second that Asmodeus himself (or Orcus, if you prefer) goes from "will take risks to hurt you" to "doesn't care much." That's massive.
So, yes, Charm and Dominate spells are powerful, but Diplomacy, as written, isn't balanced with them (in my opinion), it far exceeds them.
But, hey, that's just my two cents. As always, play what you like
Correct, that was my original point - Diplomacy gives you no saving throw in 3E/3.5E - you can succeed even if you roll a 1. And, the 4E DCs are low enough that even the "Hard" DC is pretty easy for somebody trained in the skill.
But, when you say Orcus or Asmodeus go from taking risks to hurt you to doesn't care much, I had a quick thought cross my mind:
DM as Orcus or Asmodeus: "While I am torturing you, I am going to kill your family in front of you - and not just your wife and children, but your parents, cousins, nieces, nephews, aunts and uncles as well. Only then, after the parade of death before you is done, will I give you a slow and painful death. Mwuah hah hah hah!!!"
PC: "I make a Diplomacy roll to try and convince him to spare my family, giving him a sad story about all the hardships I have overcome... I roll an 18, with modifiers, it's a 50"
DM: "sigh... nah, killing all those people would not be a challenge. I'll just kill you now and be done with it. I just don't care enough to kill all of them."
Last edited:
As part of my ongoing, "did you know that in reality..." series...
Apparently studies have shown that people make up their mind about you within the first moments of meeting you. I read about a study in a book about the Microsoft Interview process. It talked about this phenomenon.
Basically, part of your brain makes a snap judgement on whether you like this guy or not. Then you spend the rest of the interview rationalizing to yourself how one candidate "can learn our business" and the other candidate "just doesn't have the skills we're looking for", despite both candidates having the same qualifications and the same gap in skills that the company is looking for.
So, it turns out that making that initial Diplomacy roll in the first 6 seconds may be realistic and that talking longer won't change that.
Now I don't condone bad rules like what JC illustrates about the ease of which the Talker can turn the cranky orc into a friend if the rules are abused.
What I do want folks to appreciate though, is where they think the rules have no basis in reality, that something like that isn't possible, is actually contradicted by what's actually been done in real life.
The short of it is, don't over-nerf some of these things, but don't let them be over-powered either.
Similar Threads
