Are tumble Checks too easy?

[James McMurray]

Liar! Liar! Pants on fire!

Having you on my ignore list just means I get to choose when to subject myself to your posts. I still check every now and then, usually if I think you're replying to me.

The idiot epic level rogue who doesn't want to be stripped down to 1d6 hit points per level, plus non-buffed Con bonus... and light armour AC, plus non-buffed Dex bonus... and BAB equal to 3/4 HD, plus non-buffed Str bonus....

Low hit points and AC don't matter all that much when your foe is staggered and hamstrung. I just finished a fight vs. a frenzied berserker who was doing 123 damage per attack and I won because he was staggered and hamstrung.

Any epic rogue worth a crap is going to have BAB + dex, not BAB plus strength. Bonus strength damage is really immterial when you're doing 12d6+ with each strike. I've got an attack bonus of at least 28 while in an AMF, and perfect two-weapon fighting gives 6 attacks.

 

[Nail]

Hence why I said "rarely". I'm personally too lazy to try to sway those few people ......

Well then.....

In any event, it seems as if your problems with Tumble stem from Arena play. Could you conceed it's much less of a problem outside of that?

 

[James McMurray]

Well then.....

In any event, it seems as if your problems with Tumble stem from Arena play. Could you conceed it's much less of a problem outside of that?

No, because even outside of an arena there will be times when characters are fighting small groups or singular foes. It should be harder to tumble past a incredibly powerful foe than a stableboy.

Even against multiple opponents, it is often possible to get into a position where being surrounded for a single round in order to take out the opposition's leader or spellcaster is a worthwhile tradeoff.

 

[Celtavian]

re

And what kind of idiot epic level rogue doesn't run around in a widened antimagic field so he can actually sneak attack through fortified armor?

Sounds like your playing in a campaign where alot of your abilities are used under optimal conditions. Hardly a reasonable way to determine whether or not Tumble is balanced. There are plenty of ways to deal with rogues in a regular campaign where the rogue isn't using a "widened anti-magic field".

I know if used the tactics you appear to be using now in my campaign, you would be toasted.

 

[hong]

Having you on my ignore list just means I get to choose when to subject myself to your posts.

Yeah, yeah, that's what they all say.

I still check every now and then, usually if I think you're replying to me.

And you could stop any time you wanted to!

Low hit points and AC don't matter all that much when your foe is staggered and hamstrung. I just finished a fight vs. a frenzied berserker who was doing 123 damage per attack and I won because he was staggered and hamstrung.

Ah, right. Since you are using dumb splatbook feats, this means the core rules are broken. Andy Collins does this better than you.

Any epic rogue worth a crap is going to have BAB + dex, not BAB plus strength. Bonus strength damage is really immterial when you're doing 12d6+ with each strike. I've got an attack bonus of at least 28 while in an AMF, and perfect two-weapon fighting gives 6 attacks.

Whatever, d00d.

 

[James McMurray]

Sounds like your playing in a campaign where alot of your abilities are used under optimal conditions. Hardly a reasonable way to determine whether or not Tumble is balanced. There are plenty of ways to deal with rogues in a regular campaign where the rogue isn't using a "widened anti-magic field".

I know if used the tactics you appear to be using now in my campaign, you would be toasted.

As I said, it isn't a campaign, its an arena. And I'm not terribly concerned with balance. Verisimilitude is my main issue. I'm of the opinion that it should be harder to tumble past an experienced foe tan it is to tumble past a farmer.

 

[Malakye]

I used to think Tumble was too powerful until I realized that I have had at least 2 PC's die when they tumbled into a mess they couldn't get out of. I have yet to play a campaign with characters higher than 8th level though so I can't comment on high level play and how it affects Tumble.

I do have a player who is a major survivalist, meaning he maxes AC and Saves and usually has a high tumble. The creatures rarely hit him, he never takes full damage from a fireball and AoO's are almost non-existant against him but he doesn't do much damage and when he does get hit he's hurting very bad. He has also changed characters more times than any player because the characters he makes tend to become boring after a short period of time.

 

[Celtavian]

As I said, it isn't a campaign, its an arena. And I'm not terribly concerned with balance. Verisimilitude is my main issue. I'm of the opinion that it should be harder to tumble past an experienced foe tan it is to tumble past a farmer.

The thing I find amusing is that you somehow feel that others don't share the opinion that it should be harder to Tumble past a "experienced foe than it is a farmer". No one is arguing that point.

My point of contention is that it adds nothing to the game save to make a skill possessed by a few classes who must limit their armor and load to use it overly difficult. The classes who do have the skill as a class skill are already weaker combatants with fewer hit points who use the skill to get in position without being slaughtered.

As I stated, if your experience playing a rogue is that they have an easy time using sneak attack at higher level and Tumble allows you to easily get into position, then you are playing far differently from myself. My rogue has been getting slaughtered in many of our combats if the a creature even turns its attention on me for a round.

Judging from what I am reading, it sounds as though you are overly well-equipped with some seriously good stats and a very kind DM. Since that doesn't exist in the game I play in, Tumble really doesn't come up as a concern, whether for verisimilitude or balance.

 

[James McMurray]

My point of contention is that it adds nothing to the game save to make a skill possessed by a few classes who must limit their armor and load to use it overly difficult. The classes who do have the skill as a class skill are already weaker combatants with fewer hit points who use the skill to get in position without being slaughtered.

I don't think it makes it much harder if you focus on tumbling. What it does it make it so that it isn't gauranteed.

Judging from what I am reading, it sounds as though you are overly well-equipped with some seriously good stats and a very kind DM. Since that doesn't exist in the game I play in, Tumble really doesn't come up as a concern, whether for verisimilitude or balance.

Actually, the character was created at his current level, so he has exactly the amount of equipment he should have. I'm one of the three GMs and we go almost completely by the book. The only house rules we have are made to lower characters' power, not raise it. It sounds to me like you're playing with either less gear than you should have, inappropriate gear, or you just haven't put enough thought into making tumbling past foes work for you.

I'm a big curious as to how it is your rogue is getting splattered. What's your AC? If it isn't at least 30 you need to look into getting it boosted.

What about an item of quickened dimension door (or Dimension Strike if psionics are available)? That's a relatively easy way to get in and get out fast. If you're using 3.0 rules you can have a haste action to use an item of dimension door to get out of the area.

What weapon(s) do you use? Using two weapon finessed light weapons is the only way to go if you're playing a tumbling sneak attacker. You can get up to 6 attacks, each hit doing 12d6 damage.

Against small numbers of foes is when tumble really shines. Of course you'll be screwed if you go into the middle of a group and can't get back out. In those situations you only tumble in if its necessary and your party will true resurrect you.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Actually, the character was created at his current level, so he has exactly the amount of equipment he should have. I'm one of the three GMs and we go almost completely by the book. The only house rules we have are made to lower characters' power, not raise it. It sounds to me like you're playing with either less gear than you should have, inappropriate gear, or you just haven't put enough thought into making tumbling past foes work for you.

I'm a big curious as to how it is your rogue is getting splattered. What's your AC? If it isn't at least 30 you need to look into getting it boosted.

What about an item of quickened dimension door (or Dimension Strike if psionics are available)? That's a relatively easy way to get in and get out fast. If you're using 3.0 rules you can have a haste action to use an item of dimension door to get out of the area.

What weapon(s) do you use? Using two weapon finessed light weapons is the only way to go if you're playing a tumbling sneak attacker. You can get up to 6 attacks, each hit doing 12d6 damage.

Against small numbers of foes is when tumble really shines. Of course you'll be screwed if you go into the middle of a group and can't get back out. In those situations you only tumble in if its necessary and your party will true resurrect you.

I am playing a Rogue 6/Monk 6/Ninja Spy 3. I have a 31 AC and use a weapon finessed wounding rapier and +5 Shortsword. I think I am fairly well-equipped, though my armor class could be higher. I have a 22 Dex right now and a 16 str. I'm not doing too bad on stats. I have 133 hit points. I always keep increasing my Tumble skill though I don't need to now because of special abilities.

I do sometimes land some good hits, but that is what draws the creatures ire. I strike it with that wounding rapier and it turns on me like gangbusters.

I don't have much trouble killing cannon fodder unless it is leveled giants or other similar creatures with high attack bonuses from strength. I do have alot of trouble when we engage big, bad ass creatures like Cornugons with piles of attacks that cause insane Fort saves against their attacks.

Against the BBEG, I just let the fighters handle it and do what I can.

Tumbling just hasn't come up. Sure its useful for getting in position, but more often than not at this level tumbling to get into position means tumbling into a death trap. If the party is fighting a few CR 15 or 16 creatures, they usually have attacks to spare to hammer me. It doesn't take many hits to widdle down my hit points.