Are tumble Checks too easy?

[James McMurray]

But you see, that is the result of tumbling past an epic level character. You die.

Perhaps you're concentrating too much on one particular part of this. If you treat this skill (tumble) as one part of the character's actions, and then see what the result of all of those actions are (quick death), you'll find the parts really aren't all that bad. They actually work quite well, and quickly too.

Low-level Rogue PC: "I tumble behind him, and attack..I rolled a 13, so I hit AC 20!"

DM: "Hmmm. Sorry, that misses. Now the monster turns around and attacks you with a full round attack.......Let's see: I rolled a 12, a 6, a 18, and a 10. Given it's attack modifiers, all four attacks hit for......38 hp of damage! How many does that leave you with?"

Low-level Rogue PC: " Uhmmm.... -8. Can I tumble outta here?"

And if you don't attack the Epic character? What if you're tumbling past in order to attack the 6 year-old prince he's gaurding? "I'm sorry mister prince, sir. It doesn't matter that you're completely surrounded by a ring of 80th level Legendary Dreadnaughts. The first level rogue ust killed you. Sure, he dies too, but his order will True REsurrect him."

What if you're tumbling past in order to dive through a portal so you can escape this advanced prismatic dragon that's about to eat you?

 

[Metallian]

And if you don't attack the Epic character? What if you're tumbling past in order to attack the 6 year-old prince he's gaurding? "I'm sorry mister prince, sir. It doesn't matter that you're completely surrounded by a ring of 80th level Legendary Dreadnaughts. The first level rogue ust killed you. Sure, he dies too, but his order will True REsurrect him."

What if you're tumbling past in order to dive through a portal so you can escape this advanced prismatic dragon that's about to eat you?

If you really don't want someone to get past you, you could ready an action to smack anyone that passes by. If you can't afford to ready such an action, then you're obviously busy doing other things and not guarding effectively.

The Metallian

 

[Nail]

If you really don't want someone to get past you, you could ready an action to smack anyone that passes by. If you can't afford to ready such an action, then you're obviously busy doing other things and not guarding effectively.

The Metallian

What he said. (points at Metallian)

Or: "You mean your epic level PC can't come up with a counter to a tumbling 1st level rogue?!!!"

 

[ruleslawyer]

The more relevant point, however, is "Why should he have to?"

I see lots of arguments both ways as to why Tumble is or isn't overpowered. I find the argument that Tumble shouldn't be more difficult because the RESULTS of tumbling into a bad situation aren't good to be rather worthless. It's like saying that monks should be able to move at a base speed of 90' and then gain 30' per level because that increased speed will just result in their reaching more powerful foes and triggering traps before their fellow party members get there. Or that frenzy should impart a +40 Strength bonus because the frenzied berserker is likely to turn on his party in any case.

Point is, what I do not see on this thread (all four pages of it!) is a reason why the opposed-check mechanic is NOT a better mechanic than the current fixed-DC mechanic. IOW, I don't see a stated reason why it should NOT be more difficult to Tumble past or around a more skilled opponent than past or around a less-skilled one. Instead, I see "points" like these:

I don't feel a Tumble check would add anything to my game. It would just be another dice mechanic for me to remember.

My $0.02, anyway.

 

[James McMurray]

If you really don't want someone to get past you, you could ready an action to smack anyone that passes by. If you can't afford to ready such an action, then you're obviously busy doing other things and not guarding effectively.

The Metallian

Its pretty hard to ready an action when you haven't even had an initiative yet.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Yeah, but the real question is: when the hell would you ever tumble around a farmboy? Just gut the wanker!

 

[Thanee]

Hehehe.

Seems like Tumble is still among the most discussed topic even after the revision!

Anyways, I'm with ruleslawyer, I think it should be more difficult to tumble past a better fighter (i.e. figure Base Attack into the Tumble DC in some way).

Static DCs just don't work very well for skills like this, especially since the situation involves a dynamic element (the person you try to avoid).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Metallian]

Its pretty hard to ready an action when you haven't even had an initiative yet.

It's also pretty hard to make an AoO when you haven't had an initiative yet, unless you have Combat Reflexes. Which, to be fair, the guards probably have.

However, if this hypothetical Tumbler was so stealthy that he or she managed to surprise these guards, then I feel that the Tumbler (two major gimmicks of the classes with Tumbling as a class skill: stealth, mobility) has earned access past the guards. A Wizard could have teleported (a simple spell) past them, and a Barbarian could have charged through and soaked all of the hit point damage (simple hit dice), so it's not like Tumbling (a simple skill) allows you to bypass otherwise impassible obstacles all the time.

Plus, the Tumber still needs to find a way out, unless it was a suicide mission.

The Metallian

 

[ruleslawyer]

So you're saying that it's OK for the Hide and Move Silently skills to work on an opposed basis, but because those already do, Tumble doesn't need to? That hardly makes sense. Again, the issue is whether the action of tumbling itself is too difficult. Your argument shouldn't depend on the circumstances occurring prior to the tumble. It's also true that finding a hiding rogue will be difficult for your average fighter; does that mean that every fighter should receive the ability to cast finger of death (targets rogues only) as a class feature at 1st level?

True, a spellcaster could use scrying and greater teleport to get to his target: That requires getting past targets' saves, breaching all sorts of magical defenses, et cetera. That means that as the spellcaster becomes more powerful, he'll have a better chance of pulling off this tactic; likewise, as the spellcaster's foes become more powerful, he'll have a harder time. The Tumble issue, however, simply requires a DC 25 check; a Dex of 20, a +5 skill item, and 14 ranks in Tumbling mean that an 11th-level rogue does this AUTOMATICALLY. A reasonably-maxed out 4th- or 5th-level rogue won't have a particularly hard time either. Not good mechanics.

 

[hong]

And if you don't attack the Epic character? What if you're tumbling past in order to attack the 6 year-old prince he's gaurding? "I'm sorry mister prince, sir. It doesn't matter that you're completely surrounded by a ring of 80th level Legendary Dreadnaughts. The first level rogue ust killed you. Sure, he dies too, but his order will True REsurrect him."

A situation where a 1st level rogue has to tumble past 8 legendary dreadnoughts in order to kill a 6-year-old kid is about as far removed from D&D as... oh, a Counterstrike game featuring epic-level characters, or something. Try to come up with relevant examples some time.

What if you're tumbling past in order to dive through a portal so you can escape this advanced prismatic dragon that's about to eat you?

What about it?