Are tumble Checks too easy?

12d6? Unless you've somehow found a light weapon that does 2d6 base damage, you must be talking Epic-level rogue now. First 2nd level, then 10th level, now Epic-level... since I don't have the Epic book nor intend to get it, let's nail this example down to 10th level, since most campaigns are likely to progress that far.
Assuming a moderately-maxed but not totally munchkin character, let's make him a halfling (to maximize his Ac and attack bonus) who rolled an 18 for Dex and put both his attribute increases into it as well, for a total Dex of 22 (18 +2 for race +2 increases), which is a +6 Dex modifier. 10th level rogue has a BAB of +7/+2, his size gives him +1 on AC and attacks, so he has a touch AC of 17 and an attack (not counting weapon bonuses) of +14/+9. He has four feats, you specified Acrobatic, Two-Weapon Fighting and Skill Focus:Tumble; we'll say the fourth is Dodge (he's working towards Spring Attack).
As a 10th level character he has 49.000gp to spend. Multiple low-bonus items are cheaper than a single high-bonus item, so we'll give him magic armor, a magic buckler, a ring of protection, an amulet of natural armor, and gloves of dexterity. Since he's a sneak-attacker, he'll want a sword of subtlety (22,310 gp). With the rest he can get a mithril shirt +3(10,100gp), darkwood buckler +2(4,205gp), ring of protection +1(2,000gp), amulet of NA +1(2,000gp), and gloves of dexterity +2(4,000gp). This leaves him with 4,385 gp - he could buy a cloak of resistance +2, or a +1 cloak and a +1 short sword for his off hand. Let's go with the latter.
With equipment bonuses added in, our halfling rogue has AC 31 (18 touch +5 armor/shield +5 enhancements +1 ring +1 amulet +1 Dodge) and attack of +16/+11 (+19/+14 when sneak attacking), or with TWF +14/+14/+9 (+17/+17/+12 sneak). Most CR10 critters have AC in the 18-25 range, so this is pretty darn good, practically a guaranteed hit against most foes. A halfling-size short sword does 1d4: we'll assume no Str bonus since his high stats should have gone into Dex, Int, Wis, and Con, so his sneak attacks do 1d4+5d6+4 with the sword of subtlety and 1d4+5d6+1 with the off-hand blade. This is an average of 24(primary) or 21(secondary) damage, max 38 or 35. Without sneak attack, his damage is only average 6.5 or 3.5, max 8 or 5. Average hit points for a lvl10 rogue with Con 12 are 47.5, rounded to 48.

Opponent #1: centaur Barbarian 1/Ranger 6 (CR 10, ECL 13). It's tempting to put her 18 in Str, but since centaurs habitually fight in the nude she's better off putting it in Dex to pump her AC. The total of her centaur hit dice and class levels gives her 2 stat increases and 4 feats, just like the halfling: we'll use the stat increases to raise her Wis from 11 to 12 and her Con from 17 to 18. She ends up with Str 24, Dex 22, Con 18 after racial bonuses. Her BAB is +10/+5, size gives her -1 on Ac and attacks, so with no equipment she has touch AC 15 (+6 Dex -1 size) and attack +17/+12 melee(+ 2 hooves at +13/+13), +16/+11 ranged. Her feats are Dodge, Weapon Focus(hoof), Power Attack, and Quick Draw. Her ranger levels also give her Track, Endurance, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting as bonus feats. To keep things simple we'll say she has no animal companion; since this nerfs her a bit we'll take halfling as her second favored enemy to compensate (giving her a +2 to damage vs our rogue). With ITWF her melee attack becomes +15/+15/+10/+10, plus two hoof attacks at +11/+11.
Equipping her is tricky - do we give her the equipment of a lvl7 PC, a lvl13 PC, a lvl10 NPC, a CR10 monster, or what? I'll say lvl 10 NPC, which gives her a mere 16,000 gp. We'll arm her with a longsword(30gp), a shortsword(20gp), a mighty(Str 24) composite longbow(1,600gp), and 40 arrows(4gp). All these are Large versions, so their base cost doubles (though the costs of masterwork and enchantment do not). This leaves us with 14,346gp. Making the swords and the bow masterwork costs another 900 gp; enchanting both swords to +1 is another 4,000gp, leaving us with 9,446. She takes bracers of armor +1(1,000gp), ring of protection +1(2,000gp), gauntlets of ogre power +2(4,000gp) and amulet of natural armor +1(2,000gp). Note that under 3.5 the amulet stacks with her racial natural armor (in 3.0 it did not). With all equipment bonuses her AC is 21 (touch 15, natural +3, bracers +1, ring +1, amulet+1) and her melee attack is +19/+14(hooves +14/+14), with ITWF +17/+17/+12/+12(hooves+12/+12).
Damage per hit is 2d6+9 for the longsword, 1d8+5 for the shortsword, 1d6+4 per hoof, giving averages of 16, 9.5, and 7.5 respectively, max 21, 13, and 10. Average hit points are (8+3d8+1d12+6d8+44)=99.

(some spreadsheet work later) Against the rogue's AC of 31, the centaur is better off using ITWF, dealing an average of 14.6 damage/round (16.8 counting the favored enemy bonus). If she can make a full attack each round, it will take her only 2.85 rounds to kill him. If she rages, she does 22.9 (25.1 with FEB), 2.1 rounds (1.9 with FEB).
Against the centaur's AC of 21, the rogue's chance to hit is considerably better, especially if he catches her flat-footed the first round. First round he tumbles and sneak attacks for an average of 22.8 (remember, he might still miss on a roll of 1), then if he can make a full set of sneak attacks every round he deals an average of 52.65 damage/round, killing the centaur in another 1.45 rounds (1.83 if she rages). So IF he can surprise her, then follow up with 2 rounds of full sneak attacks, she's dogfood. But if he can make only 1 sneak attack per round, that's only 20.4 damage/round (3.74 or 4.72 rounds to make the kill, plus the first surprise round).
Actually, I forgot to add in the effect of criticals, but the centaur, being stronger and wielding larger weapons, would benefit more from crits. So the contest is even closer.
It essentially comes down to who gets initiative. If the rogue rolls higher (and remember, she has the same Dex, and neither one took Improved Initiative) AND can somehow arrange for his second full attack sequence to be sneak attacks, he will win more often than not, but loses about half his hit points in the process. Otherwise, he's toast.

Of course, nothing says that she HAS to go toe-to-hoof with him for three rounds. If I was her, and a tumbling rogue landed 3-4 sneak attacks on me for half my hit points, I'd Withdraw on my action, putting me 120 feet away (double move, racial speed 50 +10 for barbarian). Then hit him with an Entangle - he'll save, but it still limits him to half-speed, so it'll take three or four rounds for him to get out, enough time for 6-8 arrow shots. And her arrows do 2d6+7 per hit.
 

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I'd give the rogue ITWF instead of Dodge. Then give him some item with invisibility... 2nd round tumble back and go invisible. Sneak next to centaur and unleash full attack action.

How would that rogue do against a bbn7 or bbn2/rgr5 centaur? He'll lose. :D

Mithral chainshirt has Max dex bonus of +6, right? Then he'll need something else instead of the gloves, his Dex is already at 22. Celestial chainshirt? Too expensive...
 
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Stormrunner said:
12d6? Unless you've somehow found a light weapon that does 2d6 base damage, you must be talking Epic-level rogue now.

I've said several time that it was Epic Level. However, you can get 12d6 at 19th level by dipping into prestige classes. In your build I would drop acrobatic and dodge for ITWF and Weapon Focus. You have to swing multiple times and you have to hit when you swing, or tumble isn't very useful.
 

First
1) You gave the rouge a dark wood buckler AND two weapon fighting
If you want the attack you only have 27 ac.

2) You gave the centaur 2/5th the money, if you want to compare give the centaur 49k gold to spend.

3) The sneak attack involes being invis/ or hidden

4) What does this have to do with tumble ?

5) NPC as always more "expendable"
Try the same trick with 8 cr6 mobs
Sure one dies in the first roun, then 7 turn round and pummel the rogues. The contention is not 1v1 in arena style combat, but hte more usual party of 4 vs 10-15 npcs

Majere
 


The Skill Focus, Acrobatic, and TWF feats were stated in the original description. That leaves him with one feat. ITWF is probably better than Dodge, thanks - I was going for maxing the AC but trading 1 pt of AC for 1 extra attack probably adds more to his survivability. Oh, waitasec - he needs Weapon Finesse to use his Dex attack bonus with the swords. So no ITWF.
Forgot about the chain shirt limiting the AC increase from the gloves. They still give him a +1 to hit, though.
So his AC is actually 2 lower than I stated.

Good point on the buckler, if he full-attacks his AC drops even more.

A Bbn2/Rng5 centaur would get one fewer attack (no free ITWF) and one fewer spell, in exchange for a few more hit points and Uncanny Dodge. This does boost her flatfooted AC by +6, so it might be worth it.

"Sneak attack involves hiding or invisible." Or flatfooted. Ring of invisibility deactivates when you attack, and activation is a standard action. So he could sneak up to her while invisible, perform a full attack in the surprise round, then tumble away and activate the ring again. At which point she casts Entangle, which has a large enough radius that just dropping it on the spot where he vanished is guaranteed to include him even if he somehow took a move action after tumbling and activating. And while he's entangled she at least knows his location, albeit she still has the 50% miss chance. Of course, if he bought such a ring he couldn't afford the sword of subtlety.
Let's say he bought four invisibility potions instead of the cloak of resistance. He just used one to make the initial sneak attack, and another afterward. Now he has the same problem as before (and she's no longer flat-footed) - if he does a full-attack sneakflurry, she can whack him five or six times in return. If he just does one plus a tumble away (see, there's the use of Tumble), on her turn she gets two shots at him before he can drink. If he does one sneak and a drink, she gets her whacks (albeit at a 50% miss chance) because she briefly knows where he is. His only hope is to keep doing the sneak+drink routine to wear her down, then finish her off with a sneakflurry on the last potion. It's doable - he only needs to hit her 4 times with his primary attack to kill her - but it'll take him longer and he'll definitely be low on hitpoints.

Make her a Bbn2/Rng5, or a bow-focused ranger, and his chance of success drops even more. Or just less-nerfed, make her a "non-traditional" centaur who doesn't mind wearing armor and let her have a wolf animal companion (whose Scent ability will warn her of the presence of pesky invisible rogues).

I gave her NPC levels of wealth on the premise that she represents the sort of "skilled foe" who might be encountered as the cohort of a BBEG. Give her PC wealth levels, and she'll definitely kick his butt.

What does all this have to do with Tumble? Well, the premise was "Tumble is broken 'cause it lets me bounce past the bad guys and do mega-sneakattack damage". But if you're tumbling, you only get a single sneak attack that round (two, if you've got a Haste effect), and even with a full attack sequence it's hard to drop a fighter-type.
"But my lvl19 rogue can do 6 sneak attacks for 12d6 each!" Well, yeah, but at that level an equal foe would be a 32hd advanced marilith - who has constant True Seeing (so no invisibility or blur), and can cast blade barrier, magic weapon, align weapon, unholy aura, project image, polymorph, telekinesis, and teleport AT WILL. So presumably she will have unholy aura up at all times (doing 1d6 Str damage to the rogue every time he successfully hits her), and if he gets that close she can telekinese him away and then hit him with a blade barrier. Or just whack him with nine magic longsword strikes, tail grab, and constrict. She has 496 hp on average - you'd need 10 or 11 successful sneak attacks to kill her. That's 10 Fortitude saves to avoid Str damage.

In short, rogues with maxed-out Tumble can be darn annoying, even deadly at times - but they're not overpowering except in rare circumstances. The rogue is probably deadlier if he simply tumbles into a flanking position and then uses Aid Another, giving his friend the lvl19 barbarian a total +4 on all attacks...
 

Stormrunner said:
A Bbn2/Rng5 centaur would get one fewer attack (no free ITWF) and one fewer spell, in exchange for a few more hit points and Uncanny Dodge. This does boost her flatfooted AC by +6, so it might be worth it.
I didn't care about the touch AC, a second level barbarian in a one on one combat makes you immune against sneak attacks (as long as you're not immobilized... ). THAT would be worth it against that rogue.
 

James McMurray said:
I've said several time that it was Epic Level.
So...your saying that Tumble is absolutely amazing at Epic Levels.

Hey: that's great. Expected, but great nonetheless.

Weren't you also complaining that a low level rogue could tumble past Epic level characters with impunity? Seems like you're playing both sides of the fence here, bub.

I'd love to see what happens to that low level rogue after he tumbles behind an epic level character.

"Oh dear. That poor little rogue just missed me with a sneak attack that might have done 12 hp of damage. Of course, he had no real chance to hit my AC 33 that all epic level characters have. Gee, should I ignore him, or use up one of my five attacks to kill him with one blow?"
 

Nail said:
So...your saying that Tumble is absolutely amazing at Epic Levels.

Hey: that's great. Expected, but great nonetheless.

Weren't you also complaining that a low level rogue could tumble past Epic level characters with impunity? Seems like you're playing both sides of the fence here, bub.

I'd love to see what happens to that low level rogue after he tumbles behind an epic level character.

"Oh dear. That poor little rogue just missed me with a sneak attack that might have done 12 hp of damage. Of course, he had no real chance to hit my AC 33 that all epic level characters have. Gee, should I ignore him, or use up one of my five attacks to kill him with one blow?"

I'm not saying that tumble is amazing at epic elvels. Useful? Yes. Amazing? Only in the proper circumstances. And yeah, a 1st level rogue that tumbles past an Epic character in order to sneak attack him is going to die. That doesn't change the fact that he shouldn't be able to easily tumble past the guy in the first place.
 

James McMurray said:
....That doesn't change the fact that he shouldn't be able to easily tumble past the guy in the first place.

But you see, that is the result of tumbling past an epic level character. You die.

Perhaps you're concentrating too much on one particular part of this. If you treat this skill (tumble) as one part of the character's actions, and then see what the result of all of those actions are (quick death), you'll find the parts really aren't all that bad. They actually work quite well, and quickly too.

Low-level Rogue PC: "I tumble behind him, and attack..I rolled a 13, so I hit AC 20!"

DM: "Hmmm. Sorry, that misses. Now the monster turns around and attacks you with a full round attack.......Let's see: I rolled a 12, a 6, a 18, and a 10. Given it's attack modifiers, all four attacks hit for......38 hp of damage! How many does that leave you with?"

Low-level Rogue PC: " Uhmmm.... -8. Can I tumble outta here?"
 

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