Are tumble Checks too easy?

[Celtavian]

Wat's most worrying to me is that the rules state pretty clearly that the DC to tumble past a 1st level wizard (which should be pretty easy) is exactly the same as the DC to tumble past Llolth.

Which is worrying.

That is true. There are many things about this game that don't simulate reality well at all.

Suffice it to say that an opposed roll would add an element of reality to Tumble. With that being said Lolth most likely will have other ways of dealing with an idiot who tumbles past her either to attack or run away.

My experience is that tumbling lets weaker combat characters with far fewer feats than a fighter and lower AC's than most fighter-types make it past opponents that could seriously injure them even with one AOO. I think it is one of those rules that is balanced so those who have it have fun using it rather than a serious attempt to simulate real tumbling. It's cinematic.

Heck, I recently through out my evasion movement house rule because it didn't make the game any better or more enjoyable. Just one more hassle for the DM. An opposed roll for tumble would just make the skill ridiculously hard or ridiculously easy.

 

[TuDogz]

Saw a feat, don't recall where. I think it may have been a netbook. It was called "Create Opportunity". A fighter feat that allowed you an attack of opportunity when you would normally be denied one. The perfect counter for tumbling fools. I like it as an option, it allows the character that focuses on tumble to be amazing most of the time and then one day he goes rolling by some klutzy dwarf fighter and KABLAM. You ain't goin' nowhere slicker.

Went and found it:
_____________________
CREATE OPPORTUNITY [General: Offense]
Just when you thought you were as slippery as slippery can be, here comes somebody just a little bit quicker.
Prerequisite: Dex 15+, Combat Reflexes, Base attack bonus +3 or higher
Benefit: In lieu of ALL your attacks of opportunity for one round, you may make a single attack of opportunity against a target who moves more than 5' and moves through your threatened area in a manner that does not normally provoke an attack of opportunity.
Normal: Tumbling successfully does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Spring attack does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the attacker's target. You get no attacks of opportunity against a target with at least 50% cover.
Notes: If you have made even a single attack of opportunity since your last action, you may not use this feat, since you can no longer give up ALL attacks of opportunity. If the target has the feat Mobility, the mobility bonus to AC still applies.
__CREATE OPPORTUNITY Copyright 2001, Brian A. Smith
__Balance: 4.30 (Purp 4.25, Pow 4.25, Port 4.75, Comp 4.25, Rule 4.00)

_____________________

Because of the movement requirement it doesn't nerf spellcaster concentration. Also a very easy check though nobody is complaining about that.

 

[Enkhidu]

What if the tumble check replaced the AC of the tumbler during the tumble (say that 5 times fast!)?

People with Mobility still benefit from it, a huge tumble check is still beatable by those with a good BAB, and you wouldn't have to mess with the mechanic overmuch.

 

[Korak]

I've thought about this a bit myself.

I haven't crunched the numbers on an exhaustive list of opponents, but something I considered is a base DC of 15 + 1/2 opponents HD + opponents dex mod. This would be modified by the other circumstances listed in the PHB. However, after reading through this thread, I would consider substituting BA for HD in my formula.

DC is given as two numbers, the first assumes my original formula with HD, the second uses BA in it's place.

Tumble past a level 3 fighter with 12 dex: DC 17/17

Tumble past a level 8 wizard with 10 dex: DC 19/17

Tumble past a level 10 rogue with 20 dex: DC 25/23

Tumble past a level 12 barbarian with 16 dex: DC 24/24

Tumble past a 16 HD magical beast with 19 dex: DC 27/27

This places a meaningful separation in ability between those who dip or cross-class for 1-4 ranks and those who spend a solid number of ranks/feats/ability ups on tumble/dex. It also recognizes that it is harder to tumble past a quick/skilled combatant.

I have played on both sides of the tumble mechanic and really believe it is still too good in 3.5 I hope to convince my DM to try out my variant.

 

[Farganger]

Wat's most worrying to me is that the rules state pretty clearly that the DC to tumble past a 1st level wizard (which should be pretty easy) is exactly the same as the DC to tumble past Llolth.

Which is worrying.

A first level wizard stand next to her enemy can "cast defensively" and not provoke an attack of opportunity, whether the enemy is a kobold or Lolth. Our wizard has exactly the same DC to avoid an AoO from either, but this doesn't worry me.

As to tumbling, I don't see a problem with someone eventually attaining (even at relatively low level with the right feats, light armor and sufficient investment of skill points) the ability to move around in combat without opening themselves to attacks of opportunity.

 

[Pax]

Re: re

I don't see it as a problem. Most of the classes that have Tumble and are able to use it don't have high AC's or Base Attacks. If they had to endure AOO's, they would be worn down even faster.

A chain shirt and a Dexterity of 18 are as good as Full Plate Armor and a Dexterity of 10. And the chain shirt costs 1,400gp less.

At first I thought Tumbling was far too easy myself. I now find that the monsters in this game are very tough. The only classes that have Tumble are the Rogue, Monk and Bard, and they are rather weak combat classes often with low AC's and low hit points.

Bard, I agree, is not a combat class. Monks are questionable after the first few levels, once the fighters have enough money for DECENT armor, but before the monk can layhands on some Bracers of Armor.

For rogues, however, I disagree. Rogues tend to be able to get toys like Mithril Shirts (which is still cheper than nonmagic, ordinary full plate), and tend to max out their dexterity. IME, the Rogue tends to have AC every bit as good as the Fighter -- lower flatfoot (not that they ever ARE), but higher touch.

The only arguable class is the Monk, and Sneak Attack is difficult to use given that you are unable to use it against creatures whose vitals are out of reach aka many huge monsters and the like.[/b]

Rogue with a Longspear. 'nuff said.

Really think about who uses Tumbling most often in the game. Are they really gaining too much of an advantage given their AC, hit points, attack capabilities, and other such things.

Yes. I've seen tumble alone turn the FIGHTER into the upport role, while the ROGUE did most of the damage. It should be the other way around.

 

[Enkhidu]

...I don't see a problem with someone eventually attaining (even at relatively low level with the right feats, light armor and sufficient investment of skill points) the ability to move around in combat without opening themselves to attacks of opportunity.

Neither do I, which is why I encourage the use of Srping Attack whenever I can.

 

[Pax]

A first level wizard stand next to her enemy can "cast defensively" and not provoke an attack of opportunity, whether the enemy is a kobold or Lolth. Our wizard has exactly the same DC to avoid an AoO from either, but this doesn't worry me.

Llolth is likely an epic character. As such, it's even odds that any given avatar of Hers will have the epic feat "Spellcasting Harrier", whichpenalises defensive casting by half your HD, whenyou threatenthe caster. In such a situation, the level of the person possessing that feat has a direct and immediate effect on the Wizard's abilit to cast defensively.

 

[Felix]

Ever thought about making the DCs higher? It's called circumstance modifiers. Song and Silence is full of them; they spend half a page on situations (which are common) that make Tumble checks harder. So give them a DC 24 to move through a threatened area. Maybe they won't make it, maybe they will. But hey, shouldn't a character with a maxed skill be able to make those kinds of rolls?

Pax said:
Take a 2d level Human rogue. 16 dexterity, Skill Focus (Tumble), Acrobatic, and 5 ranks each of Tumble, Balance, and Jump. He has (5/ranks 3/dex 3/focus 2/tumble 2/balance 2/acrobatic) +17 tumble. He couldn't fail on a roll of one. He's only second level!!

What kind of armor is he wearing? If its leather, he only has a 15 AC (16 vs 1 baddie with Dodge). St Leather and he gets an armor check penalty. Sure, he can get past most anyone, but will he be able to stay there very long, or will he be dropped fairly soon due to his d6 HD?

Rogues flank and Sneak Attack in combat. Let 'em. If you're that wound up about it, make the DC harder.

 

[Pax]

Ever thought about making the DCs higher? It's called circumstance modifiers. Song and Silence is full of them; they spend half a page on situations (which are common) that make Tumble checks harder. So give them a DC 24 to move through a threatened area. Maybe they won't make it, maybe they will. But hey, shouldn't a character with a maxed skill be able to make those kinds of rolls?

Did you not read before posting?

My Rogue(10) example faced the HARDEST single-creature DC possible, and couldn't fail. Period. Despite tumblind directly THROUGH the creature, over and around the absolutely WORST terrain possible.

If he only wants to go AROUND, then he can auto-succeed versus upto SIX enemies.

What kind of armor is he wearing? If its leather, he only has a 15 AC (16 vs 1 baddie with Dodge). St Leather and he gets an armor check penalty. Sure, he can get past most anyone, but will he be able to stay there very long, or will he be dropped fairly soon due to his d6 HD?

Like most second-level fighters are going to have more than chainmail or a breastplate? The thief's AC is roughly the same as the fighter's. And, constitution aside, the average Rogue(2) has 9.5hp, while the average fighter has 15.5; all of 6hp difference. Big whoop.

Now look at the 10th level Rogue again. Hitting 37's with skill mastery, wearing a plus-whatever mithril shirt, ith a 20 dex ... that's AC 19, before magical plusses. By then he's dual-wielding, and milking evenmore out of sneak attack.

IME, the rogue didn't face as many attacks as the fighter did, primarily because he tumbled to flank ... and killed said enemy, usually before it could even swing atthe rogue!