Are tumble Checks too easy?

[heggland]

Oh, yes, that works EVER so well with -- for example -- Large and In Charge ... which only triggers on an AoO. And even with the readied attack, the rogue gets past the front lines.

Heard of Grapple and Trip?

 

[Pax]

Heard of Grapple and Trip?

How exactly do you grapple with a spiked chain, or a greatsword? And what exactly does grappling have to do with the "big weapon, smallfry stay on THAT side of me" character concept?

 

[Grog]

IME, the rogue didn't face as many attacks as the fighter did, primarily because he tumbled to flank ... and killed said enemy, usually before it could even swing atthe rogue!

If you are facing enemies that are so weak that a rogue can drop them with one attack (even a sneak attack), then that is probably the problem. Not Tumble.

 

[Grog]

Oh, yes, that works EVER so well with -- for example -- Large and In Charge ... which only triggers on an AoO. And even with the readied attack, the rogue gets past the front lines.

Possibly making a single attack on, oh, say ... the wizard ... !

Is this the stupidest rogue in the entire universe? Fine, he tumbles past the big guys and sticks the wizard for 1d6+5 damage or so (no SA because there's no one else there to flank). The wizard steps back and casts Hold Person/Monster on the rogue. The big guys then proceed to reduce him to paste.

There we go. Problem solved.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Is this the stupidest rogue in the entire universe? Fine, he tumbles past the big guys and sticks the wizard for 1d6+5 damage or so (no SA because there's no one else there to flank).

... or 7d6+5 if the rogue has initiative and the wizard's still flat-footed.

The fighters - as AoO Monkeys - all have Combat Reflexes, so being flat-footed shouldn't prevent them using all their super AoO/Reach/Movement Check/LaiC/Spiked Chain madness... but Tumble shuts them down completely.

-Hyp.

 

[Grog]

... or 7d6+5 if the rogue has initiative and the wizard's still flat-footed.

The fighters - as AoO Monkeys - all have Combat Reflexes, so being flat-footed shouldn't prevent them using all their super AoO/Reach/Movement Check/LaiC/Spiked Chain madness... but Tumble shuts them down completely.

If the wizard's flat-footed, the rogue could just as easily have used a bow. He might be able to get more hits that way, and he wouldn't have to expose himself to the very dangerous enemy fighters who, while they might be denied AoO due to Tumble, most definitely aren't denied their regular attacks against him when their turn comes up.

 

[Felix]

Pax:
...I'd simply disallow the check at all.

Isn't that one way of getting around the tumble problem? So would a Deeper Darkness (or whatever they call it in 3.5) suffice to thwart Tumble?

Pax:
No, just to the other side of 2-3 enemies standing abreast in a hallway.

If these guys are just low level mooks, then who cares if the rogue tumbles past them? If they are an elite guard who doesn't let people past them, then have them ready actions: isn't that what they'd be trained to do?

Pax:
Possibly making a single attack on, oh, say ... the wizard ... !

And God forbid the wizard ever got attacked in melee.

But one thing confuses me: what is the difference between a "wizard" and "the wizard"? Is this a BBEG distinction? Do BBEG wizards not walk around with a quickened Dimension Door anymore? And if he isn't some high powered wizard, then who cares if he might get attacked by the rogue who goes first and makes one sneak attack? And like Grog said, why not use a bow?

One last thing: to attack the wizard even once and catch him flat footed (unless the rogue is the only one aware of the enemy, and acts alone in the suprise round), the rogue would have to be 15 feet (for medium size) and 10 feet (for small) from the wizard. Any more movement and the PC would be making a double move, and would forfeit all of his attacks for that round. What on earth is any wizard worth his salt doing that close to the enemy on the first round of combat?

Ambushed? Suprised? Cornered? The wizard deserves every bit of damage he gets. He's supposed to be the smart one.

Hyp:
... or 7d6+5 if the rogue has initiative and the wizard's still flat-footed.

But this is about Tumble, not SA. Like Pax said:

The issue here, is tumble. Not Sneak Attack. Not anything else, except tumble.

So please completely disregard any refrences to SA. That's not the issue.

As we were saying: The BARD tumbles past the front line mooks and next to the wizard, who hasn't gone yet. I'm dying to hear what happens next, and how it breaks the game.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Isn't that one way of getting around the tumble problem? So would a Deeper Darkness (or whatever they call it in 3.5) suffice to thwart Tumble?

Heh. There isn't a Darkness that provides total concealment in 3.5.

Darkness now provides Shadowy Illumination (similar to a candle, only in a bigger radius).

If they are an elite guard who doesn't let people past them, then have them ready actions: isn't that what they'd be trained to do?

Can't Ready an Action before your first turn in combat, though... which is what Combat Reflexes is all about.

But this is about Tumble, not SA.

Grog was essentially saying "Why would he Tumble in the first place?", since he wouldn't be flanking. If the wizard is flat-footed, he has a reason.

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

Isn't that one way of getting around the tumble problem? So would a Deeper Darkness (or whatever they call it in 3.5) suffice to thwart Tumble?

If it prevents the rogue from seeing, it prevents the rogue form being seen, 99 times out of 100. Self-defeating process.

If these guys are just low level mooks, then who cares if the rogue tumbles past them?

Who said they were low-level mooks? What if the scenario is "These [insert multiple fearsome creatures here] are guarding the way forward, and you have 2 minutes to get past them and pull that lever, or [insert very bad consequences here]". The Rogue says "Oh, no sweat ... [rolling of dice] I slip past them all and pull the lever. Big deal."

If they are an elite guard who doesn't let people past them, then have them ready actions: isn't that what they'd be trained to do?

Not if the tumbler wins initiative. Even without surprise, if the tumbling character wins initiative ... no readied actions.

And God forbid the wizard ever got attacked in melee.

If the wizard -- or, to add other possible, you can substitute with other "hide in the back row" characetrs like the damsel-in-distress / kids the BBEG wants to eat / other nonmelee type" -- is going to suffer amelee attack, it had damned well better take something more than an impossible-to-fail-after-level-10 skill check.

One last thing: to attack the wizard even once and catch him flat footed (unless the rogue is the only one aware of the enemy, and acts alone in the suprise round), the rogue would have to be 15 feet (for medium size) and 10 feet (for small) from the wizard.

Unless he's got an effect akin to Expeditious Retreat going. Or god forbid, takes the -10 penalty to go full speed. Or both.

Any more movement and the PC would be making a double move,

No, he'd be EITHER making a double move OR taking a -10 penalty. Considering I showed an easy way for a Rogue(10) to guarantee a check of 37, every time, period ... big deal.

As we were saying: The BARD tumbles past the front line mooks and next to the wizard, who hasn't gone yet. I'm dying to hear what happens next, and how it breaks the game.

... "and defensively casts [insert spell here]". While I'm not savvy on the bard spell list, and don't know just what he might use ... remember that he can make a UMD to fire off ANY sort of magic item.

Or the rogue does, and takes ten with THAT too (Skill Mastery is a nice ability).

 

[Grog]

Who said they were low-level mooks? What if the scenario is "These [insert multiple fearsome creatures here] are guarding the way forward, and you have 2 minutes to get past them and pull that lever, or [insert very bad consequences here]". The Rogue says "Oh, no sweat ... [rolling of dice] I slip past them all and pull the lever. Big deal."

And then the [insert multiple fearsome creatures here] have the rogue for lunch. What you wrote above is a viable tactic if the rogue wants to sacrifice himself to save the rest of the party - but I fail to see how something that results in a character death is game-breaking.

If the wizard -- or, to add other possible, you can substitute with other "hide in the back row" characetrs like the damsel-in-distress / kids the BBEG wants to eat / other nonmelee type" -- is going to suffer amelee attack, it had damned well better take something more than an impossible-to-fail-after-level-10 skill check.

Like I said before, the rogue can accomplish exactly the same thing by using a bow. It's easier, it's safer, and with the right feats and/or a mid-high level character, it does more damage (potentially a lot more). If you're going to nerf Tumble because it makes sneak attacking too easy, you'd damn well better nerf sneak attacking with ranged weapons, too, because that's likely to be even more of a problem.