Are tumble Checks too easy?

[Darklone]

As for tumbling in "real" fights:
I saw guys jumping/been thrown by friends over shield walls without getting hit and laying the smack down on the archers in the 2nd row.
Yours truly used to be good at running/dodging through enemies lines without getting hit while slashing left and right with two weapons.
Once in a battle against some heavily armoured guys with polearms, I ended up rolling around on the floor (through the legs even) of those guys, didn't get hit there for more than two minutes either (a good deal of parrying was involved as well). Too bad some friends decided that this cluster of heavies around me made such a nice target for the archers... two arrow hits in each leg made an end of that battle for me

That's what I consider tumble to be. Using all kinds of unexpected moves to stay at the edge of your opponents reach without getting hit.

 

[Pax]

That's what I consider tumble to be. Using all kinds of unexpected moves to stay at the edge of your opponents reach without getting hit.

When performing these feats of martial gymastics, were you never even swung at, or did they try to hit you and simply miss completely ... ?

I would have no problem with letting one's Tumble check modify (or even BE) your effective AC during your AoO-provoking move. I DO have a problem with the other guy never getting an effective CHANCE to say, for example, "no, you don't get to go THROUGH my square" ...

 

[Nail]

Again, this is a simple problem to think through, and no versillimitude is lost. None.

Tumble has nothing to do with anyone other than the tumbler. By taking tumble, you gain the ability to avoid AoOs that most others would provoke. It's just that simple.

You'll note that AoOs are not at all affected by the ability or level of the person who gets to take one.

Let's say that again: AoO has zero to do with level, HD, abilities, godliness, etc. Nothing. Zilch. Zip.

 

[Pax]

Tumble has nothing to do with anyone other than the tumbler. By taking tumble, you gain the ability to avoid AoOs that most others would provoke. It's just that simple.[/b]

And apparently, it has nothing to do with how hard it sHOULD be to tumble past a given foe.

The only other skill that can avoid an AoO is scalar to the level of what you're doing. The skill is Concentration, and it's scalar to the level of the spell you're casting.

Tumble, however ... as I've said a couple times now, it's as easy to tumble past an eleven year old boy (commoner (1)) with a wooden toy sword, as it is to tumble past an epic knight-of-the-realm. And that's just plain wrong!

At least with Concentration, a 9th level spell is harder to cast defensively than a 1st level spell. At epic levels, if you're casting a spell form a 15th level slot, it's harder still.

But tumble has it's static little DC, which never changes, never gets harder or easier, but just stays the same. and that's the real crux of the problem. Had I my druthers, tumble checks would give you a bonus to AC, or have a DC based on what you're tumbling PAST.

Because in "real life", an experienced, trained, veteran warrior would be harder to tumble past than some eleven-year-old kid with a toy sword. In the game, there's no acceptible reason not to reflect that truth.

 

[Celtavian]

re

As for tumbling in "real" fights:
I saw guys jumping/been thrown by friends over shield walls without getting hit and laying the smack down on the archers in the 2nd row.
Yours truly used to be good at running/dodging through enemies lines without getting hit while slashing left and right with two weapons.
Once in a battle against some heavily armoured guys with polearms, I ended up rolling around on the floor (through the legs even) of those guys, didn't get hit there for more than two minutes either (a good deal of parrying was involved as well). Too bad some friends decided that this cluster of heavies around me made such a nice target for the archers... two arrow hits in each leg made an end of that battle for me

That's what I consider tumble to be. Using all kinds of unexpected moves to stay at the edge of your opponents reach without getting hit.

To me that is just Dexterity. Tumbling is using actual gymanastic moves like flips and rolls to move past an opponent. I thought they included it to simulate the wire fighting and hong kong movie style fighting.

The point I am trying to make is that Tumbling past all kinds of strange creatures would not normally be possible. Kind of a like a real man with a sword fighting a bear in a straight up fight is going to die more often than now no matter how skilled he happens to be. Single or group combat with powerful animals just wouldn't happen.

The entire game is cinematic fantasy. No need to complicate it.

 

[Majere]

Rogue tumbles past Fighter
Rogue gets flank
Rogue missess his 1 attack because his BAB is sucky
Rogue gets POUNDED because his ac is sucky
Rouge tumbles to safety

Forgive me for not seeing the problem here but having played with 6/7 different tumbling rogues this is what happens

 

[Nail]

And apparently, it has nothing to do with how hard it SHOULD be to tumble past a given foe.

Right. And as this isn't the house rules section, that's as far as we'll go here.

The only other skill that can avoid an AoO is scalar to the level of what you're doing. The skill is Concentration,.....

Actually, Concentration is alot closer to Tumble than you're letting on. As you've noted, Concentration DCs are determined by the person casting the spell, not the person that otherwise would have recieved an AoO.

Just like tumble. The opponent's skill level is irrelevent.

.....and frankly, this can be justified in game, if you'd like it to be. You've already seen some ways that can be done. You don't like those ways. That's fine......that's what Rule 0 is for.

Had I my druthers, tumble checks would give you a bonus to AC, or have a DC based on what you're tumbling PAST.

FWIW, if this were the House Rules forum, and I was forced to pick one of your two options, I'd vote for the bonus to AC approach, as it's quicker.

Because in "real life"....

Please......that's really not either relevant or likely. Let's not explore the "but if that dragon really was attacking you in Real Life..." sorts of arguements. They solve nothing, and mean even less.

 

[mmu1]

You know what's broken? People who don't realize that while there are aspects to the game that are badly designed, and there are aspects of the game they don't like, the two are rarely the same thing... Or people who don't realize that having a discussion and asking a question only wanting to hear that you're right aren't the same thing either...

Tell me, Pax, when was the last time anyone on this board convinced you that you were wrong about anything?

 

[Nail]

....In fact, as I think over this, Tumble and Concentration aren't the only ways to "avoid AoOs, regardless of skill level of opponents".

Say hello to the "Five Foot Step".

"What do you mean you can take a 5' step back and avoid the AoO from the paragon 57th level paladin mindflayer!?? That's just NOT RIGHT!!!"

 

[Metallian]

Rogue tumbles past Fighter
Rogue gets flank
Rogue missess his 1 attack because his BAB is sucky
Rogue gets POUNDED because his ac is sucky
Rouge tumbles to safety

Forgive me for not seeing the problem here but having played with 6/7 different tumbling rogues this is what happens

I agree.

I think the reason Tumble is so good is because the characters who have it as a class skill are the characters who pretty much need it to be effective. Nerfing tumble much more than it's already been nerfed would make those characters nearly useless in combat.

My Half-Celestial Rog/Monk character can fly, and has an ungodly Tumble, but despite all this mobility, I've still got to be very careful about putting him into melee.

The types of opponents that people think you "shouldn't" be able to Tumble past are the types of opponents who will paste your Tumbler once he's within melee range. That's the counterbalance, IMHO.

I also like thinking about it the way Nail suggests:

Tumble has nothing to do with anyone other than the tumbler. By taking tumble, you gain the ability to avoid AoOs that most others would provoke. It's just that simple.

You'll note that AoOs are not at all affected by the ability or level of the person who gets to take one.

Let's say that again: AoO has zero to do with level, HD, abilities, godliness, etc. Nothing. Zilch. Zip.

The Metallian