Are tumble Checks too easy?

[Camarath]

There's nothing in 3.5 to stop you double-moving at half your speed while tumbling, right? So with 30 foot speed, you could double-tumble 6 squares, or 12 with a -10 penalty.

Does running count as "normal movement"?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hey, if someone wants to play the flurry o' misses guy, more power to them.

Heh. The monk I DM just hit 6th level, and picked up his second iterative attack.

He was trying to decide whether or not to Flurry against his opponent in the last combat.

"Flurry of misses," the other players muttered.

But he decided to go for it!

I don't think he rolled above a modified 12

(On the other hand, the sorcerer just hit 6th as well, and a new player's brought in a 5th level wizard. Bloody fireballs!)

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Does running count as "normal movement"?

I've always ruled "No", but I don't know if it's ever been clarified.

Of course, I don't consider a Charge to be "normal movement" either.

-Hyp.

 

[Camarath]

I've always ruled "No", but I don't know if it's ever been clarified.

Of course, I don't consider a Charge to be "normal movement" either.

-Hyp.

That seems sensible to me. But I find "normal movement" to be an oddly ambiguous way of saying normal move action, if that is what they mean.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Pax,

I don't disagree that the whole Tumbling mechanic is unrealistic, but if you wan't realism don't even allow Tumbling. Real people do not Tumble while fighting. In fact, real people would die if they tumbled around during a sword fight, especially with demons.

Tumbling is cinematic. Period. Even the Asian martial skills did not teach tumbling as a common means of fighting your opponent. The Samurai and Shao Lin did not tumble around their enemies like you see in the movies. Tumbling is very bad in a real fight. There is no way to add realism to tumbling, if you want realism you don't include it.

Adding an opposed tumble check will add nothing to your game but another dice mechanic. You don't need it.

You and I seem to play in very different games. My monk/rogue/ninja spy can barely enter combat any more without getting smashed on. The main fighters with their big bad ass 2-handed energy weapons, heavy armor, and strength enhancing items are way overshadowing my character. My guy is primarily their for scouting and trap removal. If I get a chance to shine in combat, it is rare.

I don't know how you're rogue is even able to land all that many hits on the bad guys at your level. They certainly must not be prepared and your magic items must be vastly superior to theirs. I'm getting my ass handed to me. I don't know if my DM is particularly mean, but I know I can't even begin to compete with the fighters, clerics and wizards of our group. They get to have all the combat fun while I mostly make sure that our travel path is safe and open all chests.

I have found that at high level, Tumble is about as useful as Spot.

Me "I spotted the creature."

DM "It attacks you. It gets two tentacle hits and a bite. It hit with both tentacles for 32 pts and it bit you for 21 more, make your grapple check. You've been swalloed whole."

Me "At least I saw it."

That's about how useful tumbling is for me right now. If you're rogue tumbles into sneak attack position with an elder prismatic dragon, just have the dragon a round of attacks his way. He won't do it again, no matter how easy it is to do.

Tumbling is easy, but relatively useless at high level. The monsters are just too friggin tough.

 

[Steverooo]

B. You can't take ten avoiding an AoO. You can only take ten when you're not threatened, and clearly if you're tumbling through an area where you would otherwise be subject to an AoO, you're threatened.

If you'll note, he was referring to a 10th level Rogue with Skill Mastery (Tumbling)... and yes, he CAN take 10, then, even when threatened. See the PHB Rogue description of Skill Mastery, for details.

By the way... There's a Poll on Tumbling, on the general board for the next ten days...

 

[Steverooo]

Heh. There isn't a Darkness that provides total concealment in 3.5.

Darkness now provides Shadowy Illumination (similar to a candle, only in a bigger radius).

Can't Ready an Action before your first turn in combat, though... which is what Combat Reflexes is all about.

Where are these rules found, Hyp?

 

[Nail]

Re: Re: re

The real problem I have is, it's no harder to tumble past the Advanced (+1,000,000 HD) Paragon Prismatic Dragon (CR around a million and a half), than it is to tumble past a random inkeeper's 12-year-old son with a wooden toy sword.

Yup. That does seem to be your problem.



Perhaps your thinking about AoOs can change. AoO aren't caused by the opponent, they're caused by the mover. .....And some people don't cause AoOs when they move. Think of it as a class power, like Uncanny Dodge. Simple enough.

There is no problem with Tumble.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Where are these rules found, Hyp?

Which ones? Darkness is, oddly enough, under the description of the Darkness spell.

Readying an Action used to be under "Adjudicating the Ready Action" in the 3E DMG... not sure about 3.5.

But it basically says "Do not allow anyone to use the Ready Action outside of combat, or Bad Things Will Happen"...

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

Re: re

Pax,

I don't disagree that the whole Tumbling mechanic is unrealistic, but if you wan't realism don't even allow Tumbling. Real people do not Tumble while fighting. In fact, real people would die if they tumbled around during a sword fight, especially with demons.

I'm not looking for realism, just a balanced degree of verisimilitude. Little Bobby the ten-year-old page playing at "knights and orcs" with his toy wooden sword should not be as hard to tumble past as Galyx, the 1,000th-level Epic Paragon Mindflayer Blackguard/Illithid Savant.

Tumbling is cinematic. Period. Even the Asian martial skills did not teach tumbling as a common means of fighting your opponent.

Drunken style. Some of the monkey styles, IIRC. Both at once would be scary.

The Samurai and Shao Lin did not tumble around their enemies like you see in the movies. Tumbling is very bad in a real fight. There is no way to add realism to tumbling, if you want realism you don't include it.[/b]

I don't mind cinematic moves (if I did, I wouldn't be playing a game with elves and fireballs). I mind an utter lack of BELIVABLE cinematics. Again, Galyx the Paragon Mindflayer should be harder to tumble past than little Bobby the page.

Adding an opposed tumble check will add nothing to your game but another dice mechanic. You don't need it.

Then the DC should be scalar to the opponent. I rather like the "reflex save plus BAB" idea.