Are wardens overpowered?

[Danceofmasks]

Yes well, even all those 'stronger than they should be' feats considered, I reckon Fighters have higher defenses and higher damage output in heroic.

Fighters are awesome multi-target attackers, and their marking mechanic supports it.

Come and Get It is teh win. Rain of Steel is teh win. Sweeping Blow is teh win.
Those can all be done on the same round.
Fighters have higher hitrolls (and I don't just mean weapon talent, they wear heavy armour so they can afford to max strength)
Passing Attack is nice.
Tempest Dance is funky, Stop Thrust is awesome.

But the argument is irrelevant.
In order to see which build is "better," you gotta run scenarios.
Multiple tests with same encounters, mostly-same party except for teh defender (and maybe a few things switched around in the party for synergy's sake).

 

[Elric]

But the argument is irrelevant.
In order to see which build is "better," you gotta run scenarios.
Multiple tests with same encounters, mostly-same party except for teh defender (and maybe a few things switched around in the party for synergy's sake).

Then you can create a measure of how well each build does based on the results of the encounters. However, that could be very difficult, so maybe just categorize them according to "Warden party did better; Fighter party did better." To get the margin of error down to a reasonable 3% level, run about 1000 fights. No problem

This goes to show the impossibility of using by-hand testing results to establish any propositions about character superiority. You could make a character who was strictly inferior to another one (a Hammer Warden who took Weapon Proficiency: Whip just for kicks- and didn't buy a whip- versus one who spent the feat wisely), and the strictly better Warden might come out ahead in 55% of the encounters due to the high variability of d20s. Even that would take hundreds of tests to notice statistically, though in this special case you could answer the question ("Which character is better?") without any tests.

 

[Danceofmasks]

I already know the answer, though.

That OMFG it's OP reaction Kzach has for that particular warden ... I get that for every character I build.
And I don't do stupid things like have a defender with an AC the equivalent of +1 scale on its own at level 6.
That's leader AC, yo ... fail tank fails.

 

[Blackbrrd]

The OP asked the question: "Are wardens overpowered?

The answer is that compared to the Dwarf Battlevigor Fighter, he isn't. The fighter gets a particularily strong encounter power at level 7: Come and get it. So, if they were comparable before level 7, the fighter probably outshines the warden around that level.

Compared to a lot of builds, the build with the specific items in mention is overpowered at level 6. On the other hand, there are a lot of cheesy builds out there, maybe two-three of them per class.

Until I saw this Warden build I thought the Warden was rather lackluster, now I think it looks ok. The only defender I haven't "liked" is the Swordmage which I find a bit bland.

 

[Kzach]

The Dwarf Fighter, on the other hand, can use Rain of Steel, which adds 6.5 damage every round, regardless of a hit or miss.

Which he can do once a day. The warden can get 2d6+18 on his at-will twice a day.

Maybe it's you who should pay attention.

I never mentioned Rough Strike. 4d6 (brutal 1) + 22. Or + 26 with Wrathful Mastery.

Then of course there's the Form that auto damages every target adjacent to the warden... much like Rain of Steel.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Which he can do once a day. The warden can get 2d6+18 on his at-will twice a day.

Maybe it's you who should pay attention.

I never mentioned Rough Strike. 4d6 (brutal 1) + 22. Or + 26 with Wrathful Mastery.

Then of course there's the Form that auto damages every target adjacent to the warden... much like Rain of Steel.

Can you please just post the whole build?

Anyway, have you gotten an answer to your post - that is that there are other defender builds that are in the same league?

If you need more proof, you can probably compare the raw damage output/survivability with for instance the fighter in the montecarlo thread (they are comparing builds through simulation). If you help supply the build they might do a simulation with the it.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Which he can do once a day. The warden can get 2d6+18 on his at-will twice a day.

Maybe it's you who should pay attention.

I never mentioned Rough Strike. 4d6 (brutal 1) + 22. Or + 26 with Wrathful Mastery.

Then of course there's the Form that auto damages every target adjacent to the warden... much like Rain of Steel.

As I noted before, he gets that twice a day by using two dailies, which the Fighter can do too (Villain's Menace adds +2 to hit and +4 damage).

As for Rough Strike, that's an encounter power...so what. The Fighter has Sweeping Blow, Rain of Blows, etc...all at the same level.

And what's Wrathful Mastery? A feat? If so, how does it fit in with the other feats you already named? You haven't even posted a real "build" yet complete with what feats this PC is supposedly taking for comparison. And we haven't even started discussing alternate Fighter builds or other feats they could take.

Point is, don't make a thread asking a question when you've already decided on an answer. You asked if Warden's are OP, and everyone is saying no (although there may be aspects of the build that are OP, the class as a whole is not), so there's your answer.

 

[sigfile]

Although it's fairly pointless to speculate about errata, I'm going to do it anyway.

I'd be stunned if some of those non-typed damage feats don't get a "feat" type applied to them. Weapon Focus, Crippling Crush, and Crushing Guardian all give a character a damage bonus for using a hammer or mace. While I certainly AM making a hammer warden for LFR, I'm not going to get overattached to his damage output.

 

[Dayspire]

(snip)
Point is, don't make a thread asking a question when you've already decided on an answer.

Too late. He decided on the answer long ago, and he's ignored evidence to the contrary since then.

 

[Mistwell]

I know it wasn't the point of you posting this build, but thanks anyway for the build info Kzach. For reference, here is the build I am working on, that is slightly different, but in the similar tone.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Crippling Crusher, level 20
Goliath, Warden, Winter Fury
Build: Earth Warden
Guardian Might: Earthstrength

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 23, Con 23, Dex 13, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 16, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8.


AC: 35 Fort: 33 Reflex: 26 Will: 28
HP: 183 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 45

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +18, Perception +16, Endurance +20, Athletics +22, Acrobatics +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +10, Bluff +9, Diplomacy +9, Dungeoneering +11, Heal +11, History +10, Insight +11, Intimidate +9, Religion +10, Stealth +10, Streetwise +9, Thievery +10

FEATS
Level 1: Crippling Crush
Level 2: Sudden Roots
Level 4: Goliath Greatweapon Prowess
Level 6: Weapon Expertise (Hammer)
Level 8: Berserker's Fury
Level 10: Crushing Guardian
Level 11: Lasting Frost
Level 12: Hammer Rhythm
Level 14: Wintertouched
Level 16: Crushing Earthstrength
Level 18: Paragon Defenses
Level 20: Guard of Stone

POWERS
Warden at-will 1: Tempest Assault
Warden at-will 1: Weight of Earth
Warden encounter 1: Gale Strike
Warden daily 1: Form of Winter's Herald
Warden utility 2: Inspiring Fortitude
Warden encounter 3: Rough Strike
Warden daily 5: Form of the Dread Serpent
Warden utility 6: Treacherous Ice
Warden encounter 7: Winter's Claws
Warden daily 9: Form of Paradise's Bounty
Warden utility 10: Guardian's Attack
Warden encounter 13: Icy Shards (replaces Gale Strike)
Warden daily 15: Form of the Stonecrusher (replaces Form of the Dread Serpent)
Warden utility 16: Cleansing Earth
Warden encounter 17: Call Forth the Harvest (replaces Rough Strike)
Warden daily 19: Howl of Wrath (replaces Form of Winter's Herald)

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Summoned Stalkerhide Armor +5, Brooch of Vitality +4, Maw of the Guardian Maul +4, Frost Gauntlets (paragon tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

I am considering switching to Dwarf. I lose a point of strength, a point of speed, and Stone's Endurance. But I gain second wind as a minor action (a big deal for a warden), the ability to use a shield and a craghammer instead of a two-handed maul, and dwarven weapon training instead of goliath greatweapon. Plus the Guard of Earth feat is lost due to it being Goliath-only, but since we get another warden article and another dwarf article this month in dragon I bet there is something as good that comes out well before I reach higher levels.