Are wardens overpowered?

[Felon]

Well, one thing to note is that "striker-level damage" is a loaded term. Frankly, I think most of the little striker bonuses to damage (quarry, sneak attack, curse) don't really grant much of a lead. Certainly a good build can catch up to it, and the designers seem to feel t's fine to give defenders the means to do so. I mean, you have defenders having access to 3[W] encounter attacks and 4[W] dailies while some strikers don't. And idefenders can make use of a two-handed superior weapon, which is really where multiples of [W] really start to achieve lift-off (and notice that the PHB strikers specifically don't use them).

So, defenders achieving striker-level damage output while also enjoying high defenses and HP is nothing new.

 

[Kzach]

2d6+12. As I pointed out above, he was double-counting the item bonuses to damage (and the Talon amulet requires combat advantage anyway, which isn't reasonable to assume at 100% on a build like this).

2d6+18.

 

[ricardo440]

Well I played a warden. Didn't survive encounter 2. So I don't like, them, but I might be a bit bias.

I have never accepted that more HP is a good defence.

Two bullywug muckers and some bullywug minions soon saw the end of me. 2 rounds I think I lasted.

I know it is not comparable to the builds people are mentioning here. But damage expressions are not that important if your warden is lying on the floor bleeding out because of a couple of Brutes.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

2d6+18.

You know, if you're gonna make a thread about how Wardens are overpowered, at least have the decency to actually read the responses. 2d6+18 is not an accurate comparison here.

As Mengu pointed out:

It's 0.5 points off actuall. I'm comparing at will powers, 2d6+13 (brutal 1) which is 21 average, vs 1d12+14 which is 20.5 average. I say 0.5 points is pretty close.

Now, when you're comparing the Warden in a Guardian form, he gets +6 damage on a hit, which comes out to 27 average damage on a hit.

The Dwarf Fighter, on the other hand, can use Rain of Steel, which adds 6.5 damage every round, regardless of a hit or miss. So, he'll actually hit for 27 damage (same as the Warden), but also do 6.5 damage per round to any adjacent enemy without needing an attack roll. So in fact, he'll actually outdamage the Warden over the course of the encounter provided that he has multiple enemies around him.

Alternatively, he can use Villain's Menace. Assuming that he hits with the power, that's a +2 to attack (bringing up +3 compared to the Warden, meaning he hits approximately 15% more often) and adding a flat +4 to damage. So while now he's 2.5 damage behind the Warden in Guardian form, he'll probably still outdamage him over time due to the increased accuracy of each of his attacks.

There's also Bedevilling Assault, which is a great 5th level power from Martial Power. Basically, once per round when an ally hits the target the Fighter gets to make a melee basic attack as a free action. This would come out to 1d12+10, which is an average of 16.5 damage every time he hits on the free attack. Assuming a 50% hit rate, this increases his damage against the target to about +8.25/round. Combine it with Villain's Menace and it gets really nasty because now it's 1d12+14 and he's at a +2 to hit.

Speaking of which, that's one thing that Fighters have over Wardens. A Warden can only use one Guardian form at a time, whereas a Fighter has many powers which aren't stances that can stack certain bonuses. You can freely combine Villain's Menace with Rain of Steel or Bedevilling Assault in a single encounter for a large spike in damage. Perfect for taking down a BBEG.

 

[Larrin]

Having played a warden from level 6-10, i can say that overall I did what a defender should do, with the trade off that i never did much damage. Thus until the OP spelled out the method his warden is using to get striker level damage, i was a little surprised at his statement. I think the problem is in the feats. You can argue back and forth over whether a fighter can match that damage, it doesn't matter. Just looking at the way you can stack those feats/items...its a little much. Typed bonuses exist for the very reason of stopping this from happening, its too bad they weren't used here. If the feats gave feat bonuses, the items item bonuses, it would still be a good damage boost and all the feats and items would still be valid to take.


Bottom line: Warden = good, that specific build=cheese.

 

[Herschel]

I play an 8th-level Deva Avenger (+1 Fullblade and expertise) next to a Dwarven Warden (+2 Waraxe, Iron Armbands, Dwarven Weapon Training) in one campaign and per at-will hit he does more damage but generally I don't miss. That's a huge boon to me.

 

[Destil]

The Dwarf Fighter, on the other hand, can use Rain of Steel, which adds 6.5 damage every round, regardless of a hit or miss. So, he'll actually hit for 27 damage (same as the Warden), but also do 6.5 damage per round to any adjacent enemy without needing an attack roll. So in fact, he'll actually outdamage the Warden over the course of the encounter provided that he has multiple enemies around him.
BBEG.

I thought it was pretty much accepted that things that add to weapon damage rolls work with to Rain of Steel, which puts the dwarf at 10.5 (+2 enhancement +2 feat; armbands would be another +2 but that's at least a little ambiguous...)

 

[chitzk0i]

I thought it was pretty much accepted that things that add to weapon damage rolls work with to Rain of Steel, which puts the dwarf at 10.5 (+2 enhancement +2 feat; armbands would be another +2 but that's at least a little ambiguous...)

Enhancement and feat bonuses do add to rain of steel, but iron armbands definitely do not, since they specify melee damage rolls.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

I thought it was pretty much accepted that things that add to weapon damage rolls work with to Rain of Steel, which puts the dwarf at 10.5 (+2 enhancement +2 feat; armbands would be another +2 but that's at least a little ambiguous...)

Enhancement and feat bonuses do add to rain of steel, but iron armbands definitely do not, since they specify melee damage rolls.

Ah, true, I neglected to include that. Yes, things like Iron Armbands of Power won't work, as chitzk0i pointed out, but the rest will. This only serves to further increase the damage that Rain of Steel is pumping out each round.

Point being that a similarly optimized Fighter will keep up nicely with the Warden's damage where At-Wills are concerned, and can easily surpass it once dailies start getting tossed around. In return, the Warden gets multimarking and increased resilience. Both of these classes, however, will probably do less damage than a similarly optimized striker build.

 

[Elric]

Point being that a similarly optimized Fighter will keep up nicely with the Warden's damage where At-Wills are concerned, and can easily surpass it once dailies start getting tossed around. In return, the Warden gets multimarking and increased resilience. Both of these classes, however, will probably do less damage than a similarly optimized striker build.

There's no equivalent for the Fighter to that extra Con damage when in Guardian form hammer, particularly in heroic. Of course, there's no equivalently good item for the Warden. That item is just much too good. Crushing Guardian is a bit stronger than it should be, and Crippling Crush is somewhat stronger than it should be, and even other extremely powerful damage-boosting feats typically aren't available until at least Paragon.

Still, there's no problem with Wardens in general. As keterys said, if this Warden had taken an axe instead of a hammer, he'd lose access to all of the above.