Are wardens overpowered?

[yesnomu]

I'll ignore the points that are just listing class features, especially since some of them are pretty unremarkable (Warden's Grasp is easily the least useful defender punishment, for example). Likewise, two other defenders have THP-granting at-wills, and anyone can take weapon focus and iron armbands.

Now, crippling crush, crushing guardian and maw of the guardian are a pretty nice combination. However!

1) This only works for two encounters per day if the warden takes two level 1s instead of a level 1 and 5, and then only uses slowing/immob powers every turn. In my games, the wardens like using encounter powers that do other things (Earthgrasp Strike and Wildblood Frenzy are favorites), and like to use their THP at-will as well, so the +10 damage bonus wouldn't always come up.

2) Now, if they do just use Weight of Earth every turn, that +10 damage is pretty decent. But seriously, compare the kinds of damage bonuses real strikers can pile on: A twin-striking Ranger gets +3.5/4.5 from Quarry, double the bonuses from Weapon Focus and Iron Armbands/Bracers of Archery/Talon Amulet, and they haven't even used a power yet. My group's Ranger has a neat utility Stance that adds +3 damage to all Quarry attacks when he wins initiative over everything else, and he tends to win a lot. The Warden's situational damage bonuses are nice, but not really comparable.

 

[Mengu]

Damagewise, it's pretty comparable to a fighter.

Let's take a look at a one handed weapon talent dwarf at level 6 (not going greatweapon, to keep it more defensive).

Feats: Dwarven Weapon Training, Fighter Weapon Specialization, Armor Proficiency Plate, Toughness.

Some powers: Brash Strike, Villain's Menace, Battle Fury Stance, Rain of Steel

His Brash Strike with a vanilla +2 waraxe is going to be something like

1d12+14 (+3 strength, +2 enhancement, +2 feat, +1 specialization, +2 item, +4 con) , pretty close to the warden's at-will attack.

When you start comparing dailies, Rain of Steel is going to potentially hurt multiple people for a good wallop automatically without requiring an attack roll. So that's better than any guardian form the warden can muster up. And Villain's Menace doesn't boost the damage as much as the Warden's forms, but gives an attack bonus also.

And this fighter has another ace up his sleeve with Battle Fury Stance, if he wants to sacrifice some AC for extra damage. And he can use this stance every encounter if he chooses (except when he's using Rain of Steel which is way better anyway).

Looking at defenses, the dwarf has AC 24 or so with shield, way better than the warden. When he grants combat advantage it drops to a 22, still better than Warden. His other defenses are 20/17/16, in the same ballpark as the warden. He has 69 hit points, 2 points shy of the warden.

The warden has a marking mechanic that's slightly stronger, but the dwarf's opportunity attacks and combat challenge attacks are better than what the warden can do.

The dwarf can't make free saves like the warden, which is the only significant shortcoming I see at this point, though he has more item room to play with some resistances, than the warden.

At level 6, the goliath warden and dwarf fighter are looking pretty close. defensively and offensively.

 

[Elric]

1) This only works for two encounters per day if the warden takes two level 1s instead of a level 1 and 5

I'm not sure why this is a problem in practice. Form of the Winter's Herald and Form of Mountain's Thunder both seem better than any Warden level 5 daily.

A twin-striking Ranger gets +3.5/4.5 from Quarry, double the bonuses from Weapon Focus and Iron Armbands/Bracers of Archery/Talon Amulet, and they haven't even used a power yet.

This Warden's accuracy is only average (+10 to hit) for a 6th level character. Characters with higher attack bonuses will get more out of damage boosts. For reference, this character's DPR when in Guardian Form is +10 to hit AC 20, for 2d6 (r1) + 18 on a hit, which comes out to 14.7 DPR. Outside of the Guardian Form he does 2d6 (r1) +12 on a hit, for DPR of 11.4. Very solid, but it's not going to exceed a well-built striker!

My group's Ranger has a neat utility Stance that adds +3 damage to all Quarry attacks when he wins initiative over everything else, and he tends to win a lot.

If so, he's been lucky. Unless you're very well invested in initiative boosts (which, at a low level, is hard to do), beating all other combatants in initiative is rare.

The point remains: it's not that Wardens are generally too strong. The player in question has hit on a very strong build. It's not the only one out there.

 

[Kzach]

His Brash Strike with a vanilla +2 waraxe is going to be something like

1d12+14 (+3 strength, +2 enhancement, +2 feat, +1 specialization, +2 item, +4 con) , pretty close to the warden's at-will attack.

4 points off is 'pretty close'?

I don't think so.

When you start comparing dailies, Rain of Steel...

Umm... RoS is the equivalent to average weapon damage.

As long as we're comparing dailies, Form of Mountain's Thunder not only gives the warden the +6 damage bonus to every attack, but every successful attack also adds Strength mod to all adjacent enemies. Better than RoS by far.

Looking at defenses, the dwarf has AC 24 or so with shield, way better than the warden. When he grants combat advantage it drops to a 22, still better than Warden. His other defenses are 20/17/16, in the same ballpark as the warden. He has 69 hit points, 2 points shy of the warden.

Not when he's using Brash Strike it's not. It's the equivalent of 20, plus granting certain extra affects to lurkers and skirmishers. Oh, and the CA applies to all defences, not just AC.

And he's still shy of the warden's bonus damage by 10 points.

And 69 points is with Toughness. Add Toughness to the Warden and it's 7 points difference.

The warden has a marking mechanic that's slightly stronger, but the dwarf's opportunity attacks and combat challenge attacks are better than what the warden can do.

Why are the fighter opp attacks better? Because they prevent movement? The warden can slide a target from 5 squares away or do an attack for big damage that grants CA to the rest of the group. That CA amounts to far greater a threat than halting movement. It also is better than the fighter's measly bonus to hit since the CA is granted to everyone in the party.

At level 6, the goliath warden and dwarf fighter are looking pretty close. defensively and offensively.

If you really believe this then there's not much point in arguing with you about it. I think the goliath earthstrength warden is a clear winner in all categories. If it was a winner in only one, then I wouldn't have a problem with it, but it is powerful in every aspect, which to me is a clear sign it's overpowered.

 

[Elric]

Umm... RoS is the equivalent to average weapon damage.

As long as we're comparing dailies, Form of Mountain's Thunder not only gives the warden the +6 damage bonus to every attack, but every successful attack also adds Strength mod to all adjacent enemies. Better than RoS by far.

Rain of Steel doesn't need to hit, and the [W] gets bonus damage from several factors. Not that Form of Mountain's Thunder isn't awesome

Not when he's using Brash Strike it's not. It's the equivalent of 20, plus granting certain extra affects to lurkers and skirmishers. Oh, and the CA applies to all defences, not just AC.

Brash Strike only grants CA to one enemy. It also gets +2 to hit, which means that DPR from Brash Strike will certainly be higher than DPR from Weight of Earth when no stances/guardian forms are being used (higher to hit bonus, and higher damage on a hit).

Indeed, the above Dwarf fighter build comes out to 14.95 DPR, which means that the dwarf has (just slightly) higher at-will damage than the Warden even when the Warden is in a "generic" guardian form (14.7 DPR).

And 69 points is with Toughness. Add Toughness to the Warden and it's 7 points difference.

Indeed! But the Warden would have to give up one of his existing feats. Any suggestions?

 

[Mengu]

4 points off is 'pretty close'?

I don't think so.

It's 0.5 points off actuall. I'm comparing at will powers, 2d6+13 (brutal 1) which is 21 average, vs 1d12+14 which is 20.5 average. I say 0.5 points is pretty close.

You only attain the 2d6+19 when using dailies, for which the argument follows that the fighter can also use dailies.

Umm... RoS is the equivalent to average weapon damage.

Even with the most stringent reading of the rules, that's 6.5 extra damage. A whole lot more when you add static modifiers. And you don't have to hit. It just happens on the enemy's turn. Again comparable to the 6 you get for using a guardian form.

Not when he's using Brash Strike it's not. It's the equivalent of 20, plus granting certain extra affects to lurkers and skirmishers. Oh, and the CA applies to all defences, not just AC.

How are you going from 24 to 20? combat advantage is combat advantage. You can't doubly grant combat advantage.

And he's still shy of the warden's bonus damage by 10 points.

Not sure what 10 points you're talking about.

And 69 points is with Toughness. Add Toughness to the Warden and it's 7 points difference.

Except by the time the warden picks up toughness, the dwarf will be picking up another feat. It's not a race, I'm just comparing the two level 6 builds.

Why are the fighter opp attacks better? Because they prevent movement? The warden can slide a target from 5 squares away or do an attack for big damage that grants CA to the rest of the group. That CA amounts to far greater a threat than halting movement. It also is better than the fighter's measly bonus to hit since the CA is granted to everyone in the party.

Fighter opportunity attacks are more accurate (+2 or so from wis in the case of the dwarf), and yes, they stop movement. The warden's slide is a reaction, which only happens after the enemy has already done whatever it's going to do. And the warden does not get a combat challenge attack when the enemy shifts which is a pretty big plus for the fighter.

Also Warden's Fury is not an opportunity attack. Warden opportunity attacks do nothing special. Fighter opportunity attacks stop people.

If you really believe this then there's not much point in arguing with you about it.

You posed a question. Are Wardens overpowered? I gave a comparative answer. You can just say we disagree.

 

[Elric]

It's 0.5 points off actuall. I'm comparing at will powers, 2d6+13 (brutal 1) which is 21 average, vs 1d12+14 which is 20.5 average. I say 0.5 points is pretty close.

You only attain the 2d6+19 when using dailies, for which the argument follows that the fighter can also use dailies.

2d6+12. As I pointed out above, he was double-counting the item bonuses to damage (and the Talon amulet requires combat advantage anyway, which isn't reasonable to assume at 100% on a build like this).

 

[keterys]

Hah, nice. So basically - wardens on their own are just fine, but the real complaint is actually with a few things that were added long after wardens in order to boost their performance. Primarily that of hammer-using Earthstrength Wardens, for some reason.

Crippling Crush compares very strongly to other feats of a similar nature. Compare to the domain feats that add +2/+3/+4 damage to a particular at-will, for instance.

Maw of the Guardian should probably add its enhancement bonus as an item bonus to compare to other items.

Crushing Guardian compares strongly to, for example, Deadly Rage which functions much the same, but deals less damage, on a striker class.

And if it's not a hammer-using earthstrength warden, it probably doesn't get any of that. So the problem is more likely with a specific warden or build of warden, not with the warden class. Feycharger existing doesn't mean Eladrin are broken.

 

[Elric]

Hah, nice...

I agree with everything (as usual), except

Maw of the Guardian should probably add its enhancement bonus as an item bonus to compare to other items.

Normative statements aside, items that grant untyped damage bonuses aren't exactly rare. Great game design at work!

Edit- compared to Footpad's Friend, a similar but significantly weaker item, what's most surprising about the Maw of the Guardian is that it's available at level 4. Back in AV 1 Wizards still knew enough not to make a level 5 version of Footpad's Friend.

 

[keterys]

So, it depends... a few months ago I'd have agreed that Maw of the Guardian was not atypical for such weapons. But after Bloodclaw and Reckless took the hit, I've lowered my bar quite a bit. I was figuring it to look a lot more like Radiant, but much lower level.

Footpad's Friend I actually think more addresses a perceived imbalance in possible damage output between Brutal Scoundrels and Artful Tricksters than anything else. And it had to compare to Reckless, Bloodclaw, Subtle, and Frost

And my gut feeling is that Subtle is going to get nerfed.

Perhaps it's Con-based because they're assuming that most Wis wardens are going Pit Fighter or Son of Mercy and can add Wisdom to damage (plus the Wis to damage they get on a couple of powers anyways), so they wanted to catch Con wardens up to that. If so, they had that idea in Primal Power and Dragon 379 too

But, sure, +Enhancement untyped while in guardian. It at least pushes things off to high level.