Are we fair to WotC?

That is the very essence of the edition warring - highlighting everybody else's actions and complaints as if they somehow aren't as legitimate as your own thoughts and feelings. It's the dismissals, the declaration that opinions are wrong, that are at the heart of the edition war, not the criticism of the games or companies involved.


That often seems the case.


As to the topic of the thread, WotC does something that I do not like that I haven't seen other companies do. They have cyclical layoffs and often do them just before the end of the year (when many are celebrating the holidays with their families). By all accounts it is structured into their business model. Blah-blah-blah-fiduciary-responsibility-to-stockholders-blah-blah-Bull-dookey. It's a despicable corporate policy that ought to be eliminated from practice. I give them credit when they do something well (The Lords of Waterdeep boardgame) but when they do something poorly, they hear about that too.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

As [MENTION=1465]Li Shenron[/MENTION] pointed out, your limited view doesn't make you an expert on whether this book was a good or bad decision.
Of course not. I don't care whether or not that or anything else was a good decision by WotC's standards. Or by anyone else's standards other than my own. As a consumer, I am selfish. I want WotC to satisfy my needs at a price I'm willing to pay. Which it used to do, and then gradually stopped doing.

And, as to the point I was making, I don't care what edition number is slapped on a product, I care whether that product helps me run my game.

I don't think that's being unfair to WotC; that's basically how consumers treat all businesses.
 

I think what he's saying is that this is about as personal a relationship as following Joss Whedon on Twitter (well, better than that). That the relationship is still "Fan/Publisher", not a personal relationship like "Friend/Friend". Certainly they are friendly and accessible, but not really your friend. Of course there will be a very small fraction of the gamer population for which they do have a personal relationship, but the comment is directed at the majority who think they have one when they really don't.

While I understand that there is a segment with no friendships within the "industry," there is a segment of us who do have such friends; relationships which are more than just "following... on twitter." And because the gaming business is so relatively small, once you start moving (even electronically) in the right circles, casual relationships can be formed pretty quickly and even if someone in the industry is not your friend, they are generally only one or two steps removed from those who you might classify as friends.

So, how does anyone know, when making that sort of comment, what the relationships actually are? I guess my point is that blanket statements are often best avoided and that statement is going to be wrong often enough that it should not be made.
 

I don't understand how (or why) this matter is being characterized as fair or unfair. I can understand it being described as unconstructive or irritating or mistaken (or the opposite of those adjectives). But asking whether it's fair is like asking whether it's just or evenhanded. Justice seems irrelevant, and evenhanded compared to what?
 

I'm going to respond to the original question (I'm not going to read through 7 pages of replies).

I'm hard on wizards of the coast because it seems to me they have a severe case of ADD as a company. So when 3.5 edition was over, that was fine, the game had a good what.... 8 year or so... run. 3e was my first introduction into tabletop RPGs. I loved it, but like many people I wanted to move on to something new. When I saw 4th edition I loved it (infact I still do). So that went along for a while, then after phb 3 they started REALLY tinkering and changing the system up, gearing up for the release of essentials, which was promised to be the "evergreen" D&D. I was pretty irritated by this, but as long as they were going to stick with a product great. Put it out and keep with it. So THEN essentials failed. Okay. So 4th edition had a massive errata, which basically changed the game completely, as well as this essentials line that was promised to be the baseline of D&D for the forseeable future.

Of course this didn't work out. So then they announce 5th edition. Except they purposefully side step that word, which is a huge pet peeve of mine. It seems to me they are deliberately going out of their way to avoid the word "Edition". Which of course is what it is, a new edition of D&D. So at this point im pretty fed up with rebuying the same books. Yes yes, I am well aware I can use my old books for forgotten realms, and dragonlance and darksun etc etc. Let's face it though, the new edition is going to advance the timelines, or reset them or whatever, and provide material for the NEW game going on into 5th edition.

At this point im tired. I'm tired of the edition switching. I just want to support a game that is going to stay around for a LONG time. I'm tired of being jerked every which way by Mike Mearls and the rest. It seems like they have these amazing ideas and then say "OH OH OH LOOK AT THIS NEW AWESOME THING", then completely drop their current project and work on something new. It really irritates me that a DMG for epic level play didn't come out either.

COMPLETE AN EDITION BEFORE YOU START ON ANOTHER.

Hell, even with the new playtest it seems as if they have no idea where they are going. It's just a mishmash of ideas, they are trying to filter through. What really gets me is that they release a playtest, then say they are several playtests ahead of the one currently out. So when they get feed back, they change the playtest that came out, which then (by the nature of the game) changes the future playtests on a fundamental level. So it makes more work for them because they must change their new playtest with the feed back of the old playtest. Does any of this even make sense to anyone? It sure doesn't for me.

I don't care what wizards does, I just want them to STICK WITH AN EDITION!
 

Of course this didn't work out. So then they announce 5th edition. Except they purposefully side step that word, which is a huge pet peeve of mine.

You're not alone. It was the word "Next" which made me eventually just lose interest in the playtesting of the new edition. If they stick with that name, what will they call 6th edition in a few years? "DnD After?"
 

Yeah, we're unfair.

But we collectively pay their bills, so we get to be unfair. "It's not fair!" is the reaction of a child. Yeah, it's not fair. Consumers/users/fans are not really fair. They never will be -- they never are! Is it fair that Two and a Half Men has a series run longer than Firefly? Is it fair that east Africa is in the midst of a generational drought? Is it fair that your friend is better at Magic: The Gathering than you? Is it fair that D&D has so many more players than the Star Wars RPG?

Heck no!

What is fair is irrelevant. The world ain't an equitable place, and it's utopic to insist that it must be. One of the challenges of any company that wants to sell stuff is to figure out how to deal with the patently unfair environment they're selling stuff into.

I truly hope you do not believe this. It is one thing to acknowledge that the world is inherently an imperfectly fair place due to factors beyond our control. It is another damned thing entirely to use that as justification or an excuse for behaving poorly, which is what you're doing here. Yes, the world isn't fair. Does that give you, or anyone else, license to act like a brat? No.

What is fair is not irrelevant.

This hinges on two things.

First, what you mean by "okay." Is it logical and rational? Not a chance. But it's not logical to feel like the thing in the pink box is more feminine than the thing in the blue box, either. So "being logical and rational" is really an irrational standard to hold any random person to (including any random person crying about how 5e is the devil on the internet).

Again, as above: it's one thing to point out that people are inherently irrational. It is another thing entirely to use that to justify behaving in an irrational manner about something you should approach with rational thought.

So it is "understandable," in that this is demonstrably how people are. There is an emotional investment in a brand. That's part of the POINT of a brand, after all. It's part of our personal stories and our personal histories and these things get associated with strong emotions and so get expressed often in emotional terms. So is it permissible on, say, a message board about D&D, to post an emotional opinion about how you don't like 5e? Sure. It's "okay." Here at ENWorld, we take a bit of a dim opinion of overwrought venom and acrimony toward a given game, but this is mostly because it makes for lousy conversation, which is what the board is ostensibly about. It's not necessarily because people shouldn't think that way -- get a blog. ;)

Second, the formation of that less-than-flattering opinion of the opinion implies that your own opinion is somehow more "okay" than the other.

I'm going to say something now that shouldn't be controversial, but apparently is controversial to certain people anyway: Some opinions are more supportable than others, and some opinions should be given less respect than others.

But, because people aren't logical and rational, that's probably a false sense of superiority. A passionate love of 5e is just as irrational as a biting hatred of 5e.

I would argue that it's not, actually. A passionate love for 5e reflects an appreciation for the game and a desire to play it, which will likely make the game more enjoyable to play. Meanwhile, a biting hatred of 5e reflects a fixation with something that you purport to want nothing to do with, and serves no productive purpose whatsoever. It demonstrates that you value tearing something down more than building something up, and that you'd rather spend your time on being negative about something you don't enjoy than being positive about something you do.

It's not more correct or better researched or more defensible, so decrying others' irrationality is a vicious double-standard and a possible self-delusion. "Your opinion is dumb, my opinion isn't" is always false. We also take a pretty dim view of THAT here on these boards, for much the same reason: it's lousy conversation.

Again, the notion that all opinions are equally worthwhile is a false one. It's understandable that some would want to push the notion that they are equally worthwhile, if their own opinions are being repeatedly shown to be unsupportable. Making opinions immune to criticism certainly goes a long way in evening the playing field for the people with poorly thought-out opinions.
 
Last edited:

False. I have met, gamed, and dined with a number of the Savage Worlds people. And that is without even seeking them out. I am not saying we are BFFs, but its certainly beyond "they are just part of some faceless company."

You have a personal relationship with the people who work at Savage Worlds. But unless you have a personal relationship with the company itself - which means you have a relationship that allows you a significantly higher amount of input on their business decisions than your average consumer - you still have little to no interaction with the company beyond your own purchasing decisions.

I think what he's saying is that this is about as personal a relationship as following Joss Whedon on Twitter (well, better than that). That the relationship is still "Fan/Publisher", not a personal relationship like "Friend/Friend". Certainly they are friendly and accessible, but not really your friend. Of course there will be a very small fraction of the gamer population for which they do have a personal relationship, but the comment is directed at the majority who think they have one when they really don't.

This is it, precisely. You may be treated as a whole individual by other individuals working for the company in question, but to the company itself you are a consumer and nothing more. You do not have a relationship which entitles you to more influence in the company's business decisions than the next guy, and it issilly to react to those decisions as though you were personally betrayed, insulted, or offended.

And, on the flip side, it is equally silly to react to companies' business decisions with sentiments like, "They really understand me!" or "They finally listened to what I'd been telling them!"
 
Last edited:

WoTC get the most flak because they are the most important company in the RPG industry. Sure, Paizo are doing well but they are doing it with a WoTC product that is itself a modern iteration of THE original roleplaying game phenomenon.

As to my personal gripes...none until they ate my money with the D&D 4th Edition Subscriber content. I paid good money for the use of a character generator that part way through my subscription stopped working. Flat out...failure. I should have got a refund. I enjoyed 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th edition. TSR made good games and so have WotC. Play the one you like best and I will too but I don't like being ripped off.

As to D&D Next...it will be a good fun game that has flaws and quirks just like ever edition before it. I look forward to reading and trying it. Looking at the cool new art and hopefully being inspired to enjoy myself some more. I don't care for the way they have gone about the playtest though...pretty sloppy.

:)
 

You're not alone. It was the word "Next" which made me eventually just lose interest in the playtesting of the new edition. If they stick with that name, what will they call 6th edition in a few years? "DnD After?"

Just think of how capricious Microsoft has been with edition names: Windows 3.0, 3.1, 95, 98, ME, XP, Vista, 7, 8...

Perhaps the should call the version after "D&D Next" "D&D Try"? (Let's see how many get *that* reference... :D )
 

Remove ads

Top