Are we fair to WotC?

You have a personal relationship with the people who work at Savage Worlds. But unless you have a personal relationship with the company itself - which means you have a relationship that allows you a significantly higher amount of input on their business decisions than your average consumer - you still have little to no interaction with the company beyond your own purchasing decisions.

You are still ignoring the fact that, for most RPG companies, the people that work at those companies are the company. WotC is the exception here, not the rule. Even with Paizo, if you have an in with Erik Mona or Lisa Stevens or even Sean Reynolds, you have the ear of the company. Likewise with Steve Russell and Rite publishing, Owen Stephens and Super Genius Games, or Louis Porter Jr of LPJD just to name three from three fairly popular 3pps. And in most RPG companies, input from the consumer is taken pretty seriously and products are sometimes made just because one person asked for them.
 

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You are still ignoring the fact that, for most RPG companies, the people that work at those companies are the company. WotC is the exception here, not the rule. Even with Paizo, if you have an in with Erik Mona or Lisa Stevens or even Sean Reynolds, you have the ear of the company. Likewise with Steve Russell and Rite publishing, Owen Stephens and Super Genius Games, or Louis Porter Jr of LPJD just to name three from three fairly popular 3pps. And in most RPG companies, input from the consumer is taken pretty seriously and products are sometimes made just because one person asked for them.

Unless you're going to tell me that every person (or even most of the people) who took to the internet to express how betrayed, insulted, or offended they were by any given WotC decision was a close personal friend of the company's, the point stands. Most of the people who showed up and acted insulted had no relationship with the company at all. Those are the people whose behavior I am labeling unacceptable.
 

Dannager;6169847It is [I said:
one thing[/I] to acknowledge that the world is inherently an imperfectly fair place due to factors beyond our control. It is another damned thing entirely to use that as justification or an excuse for behaving poorly, which is what you're doing here. Yes, the world isn't fair. Does that give you, or anyone else, license to act like a brat? No.


What is fair is not irrelevant.

Quite true. And just because speeding is omnipresent doesn't make it any less illegal. And just because cursing is rude doesn't mean that everyone over the age of about 5 has cursed. But it does change your tactic for dealing with it. Hand-wringing over how people should obey the law and never speed, or how they should never say naughty words, or how they should be fair, ignores the behavior of actual human beings. Yeah, we'd all love to live in a world of unicorns and rainbows, but that ain't the world that exists, and there's little point in stating the obvious. That doesn't give anyone permission, but it does give us context on dealing with the problem.

What is fair isn't irrelevant, it's just not useful in any real sense. Are we unfair? Yes. Obviously. Would you like to understand why and work to move the needle, or just stand there wishing on a star about how things should be different?

Again, as above: it's one thing to point out that people are inherently irrational. It is another thing entirely to use that to justify behaving in an irrational manner about something you should approach with rational thought.

Here's how this sounds to me:

"How people are shouldn't justify how they behave."

To which I can only admit befuddlement. There is no such thing as a person so devoid of context that behavior is not influenced (and, often, determined) by what they are when they arrive at the moment of deciding how to behave.

I'm going to say something now that shouldn't be controversial, but apparently is controversial to certain people anyway: Some opinions are more supportable than others, and some opinions should be given less respect than others.

It's key to maintain the distinction between an opinion and an emotion, though. An opinion like "I think we should invent a mecha defense force!" is an argument for an action, and there is evidence for and against it. A feeling like "I think mechas are cool" isn't the same kind of statement, though, and isn't a matter of evidence and support.

"I hate 5e!" is pretty obviously an emotional statement, and so is a valid reflection of someone's emotional state. "I think WotC should just re-publish 1e forever!" is an opinion that may be based on that emotion, and that has pros and cons and evidence for and against.

Emotions aren't right or wrong, they're just unconscious reactions, so no one is wrong to feel an overwhelming irrational hate for 5e, because that's just what they're feeling. It's a valid emotional response, because there's no such thing as an invalid emotional response, because emotions aren't controlled by our conscious mind. The 5e-hater didn't CHOOSE to hate 5e, she just DOES.

I would argue that it's not, actually. A passionate love for 5e reflects an appreciation for the game and a desire to play it, which will likely make the game more enjoyable to play. Meanwhile, a biting hatred of 5e reflects a fixation with something that you purport to want nothing to do with, and serves no productive purpose whatsoever. It demonstrates that you value tearing something down more than building something up, and that you'd rather spend your time on being negative about something you don't enjoy than being positive about something you do.

We don't need to hide what we feel, we just need to be able to talk about it. So someone hates 5e with the irrational burning rage of a thousand YouTube commenters. Good. That's a powerful reaction. Lets explore that in more detail. What, specifically, triggers them when they look at 5e? What would it involve for 5e to offend less? That's a wealth of knowledge about demands that can be met and markets that can be sold to and choices that can be made.

That's all immensely useful, because it builds something else up. A fire burns down a forest, but it makes the ground fertile for the next plants. Take apart your iPhone and you begin to see how it works. Destruction is an inextricable part of creation, and criticism is an inherent element of creativity.

Again, the notion that all opinions are equally worthwhile is a false one. It's understandable that some would want to push the notion that they are equally worthwhile, if their own opinions are being repeatedly shown to be unsupportable. Making opinions immune to criticism certainly goes a long way in evening the playing field for the people with poorly thought-out opinions.

I see you girding to fight this "Some opinions suck!" battle, but I'm not so interested in the clash. The idea to publish only 1e forever may or may not be a good idea (though the OSR seems to be doing pretty OK!), but the feeling of hate someone has for a given noun isn't the same thing, and I imagine you'd agree with that distinction, because it matches reality. Yeah, ideas have varying weights of veracity. But "I hate 5e!" isn't one of those ideas.
 

Unless you're going to tell me that every person (or even most of the people) who took to the internet to express how betrayed, insulted, or offended they were by any given WotC decision was a close personal friend of the company's, the point stands. Most of the people who showed up and acted insulted had no relationship with the company at all. Those are the people whose behavior I am labeling unacceptable.

Except I wasn't quibbling with your assertion that people have no real relationship with WotC. I was quibbling with your statement regarding RPG companies in general.

That is, you said...

You don't have a personal relationship with WotC, or any other game publisher.

I was disagreeing with the sentiment of the second half of the statement, not the first. Your generalization is too general and in some instances is quite wrong.

Furthermore, your assertion that befriending one person in an RPG company does not equal befriending the company is also and often wrong considering the nature of most RPG companies. It makes them each sound like monolithic faceless corporations, which is at odds with reality.
 
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Except I wasn't quibbling with your assertion that people have no real relationship with WotC. I was quibbling with your statement regarding RPG companies in general.

That is, you said...



I was disagreeing with the sentiment of the second half of the statement, not the first. Your generalization is too general and in some instances is quite wrong.

Furthermore, your assertion that befriending one person in an RPG company does not equal befriending the company is also and often wrong considering the nature of most RPG companies. It makes them each sound like monolithic faceless corporations, which is at odds with reality.

Fair enough. Consider it to apply only to companies sufficiently large (to the point where it becomes very, very difficult for any given individual to reach a position where their desires are being personally catered to by the decisions of the company).
 

Perhaps the should call the version after "D&D Next" "D&D Try"? (Let's see how many get *that* reference... :D )

If they let Megumi Hayashibara do the theme song I'm sold.

It's key to maintain the distinction between an opinion and an emotion, though. An opinion like "I think we should invent a mecha defense force!" is an argument for an action, and there is evidence for and against it. A feeling like "I think mechas are cool" isn't the same kind of statement, though, and isn't a matter of evidence and support.

In the end, I'm really not any more interested in people's assertions as to how they feel about games / companies any more than I want to know whether or not they feel constipated today. Criticism is not the same thing as a naked assertion of emotion.

I'm interested in discussions and civil arguments, which means there needs to be more brought to the table then emotion and emotions-based rhetorical devices. Without rational parameters we're not having a discussion or a civil argument. We're either commiserating or taking turns shouting our emotional state to anyone in the vicinity. That's not really a discussion, and thus I don't see any point in it clogging up a discussion board. If a criticism is posed with weak rational underpinnings and falls back on little more than, "This makes me angry! You suck!" poorly couched in rhetorical devices then it falls into "unfair criticism" in that it doesn't actually meet a minimal burden of argumentative structure.

- Marty Lund
 
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That was my feeling about 3.5 books as well. Things started getting interesting near the end.
4e had a similar trend. Look at the last few years and you see books like Heroes of the Feywild, the Neverwinter setting, etc. along with a few misses like Heroes of Shadow.

-O
 

In the end, I'm really not any more interested in people's assertions as to how they feel about games / companies any more than I want to know whether or not they feel constipated today. Criticism is not the same thing as a naked assertion of emotion.


I'm interested in discussions and civil arguments, which means there needs to be more brought to the table then emotion and emotions-based rhetorical devices. Without rational parameters we're not having a discussion or a civil argument. We're either commiserating or taking turns shouting our emotional state to anyone in the vicinity. That's not really a discussion, and thus I don't see any point in it clogging up a discussion board. If a criticism is posed with weak rational underpinnings and falls back on little more than, "This makes me angry! You suck!" poorly couched in rhetorical devices then it falls into "unfair criticism" in that it doesn't actually meet a minimal burden of argumentative structure.

Exactly. Which is why I said that the key is in talking over the emotion. So 5e makes you feel like someone shot your dog, WHY? The emotion isn't the part with the interesting conversation. It's valid, but it's not useful. What's interesting is when we unpack that feeling and get at the specific changes that provoke that reaction, because that tells us something about how we interact with this game.

The point I'm making is that the emotion is still valid, fine, and good. If you irrationally hate 5e, that isn't a useless opinion or a worthless thought. It's the starting point for analysis. The analysis is where interesting conversation happens. Like I said, just asserting your feelings isn't much of a conversation.
 

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