D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Minigiant]

The Wizard isn't really All That

The Wizard just has All That

The two statements are different.

If you look at the Party roles: Damage, Defender, Healer, Support, Control, Explorer, Lockpick, Sage, Scout, Utility, and Face.

There are only 2 ahigh level wizard can't do: Defender and Healer

The high level wizard can do all the other roles are an average or better quality all at the same time. And I'm only saying average because Wizards are average Faces. The Wizard at high levels is can't be the Healer, is poor at Defender, is an average Face, and is above average to the best at everything else.

So as a wizard once you get to mid-levels, never have to worry about not getting spotlight and and have to actively choose not to outshine others.

 

[ECMO3]

The Wizard isn't really All That

The Wizard just has All That

The two statements are different.

If you look at the Party roles: Damage, Defender, Healer, Support, Control, Explorer, Lockpick, Sage, Scout, Utility, and Face.

There are only 2 ahigh level wizard can't do: Defender and Healer

The high level wizard can do all the other roles are an average or better quality all at the same time. And I'm only saying average because Wizards are average Faces. The Wizard at high levels is can't be the Healer, is poor at Defender, is an average Face, and is above average to the best at everything else.

So as a wizard once you get to mid-levels, never have to worry about not getting spotlight and and have to actively choose not to outshine others.

A Bladesinger with the right spell selection can do defender as well as any class. Spells and subclass abilities make up for ALL of their basic class shortfalls (AC, attack damage and hit points). A high-level Bladesinger with upcast false life, contingency-false life and song of defense can take more damage than a Barbarian, not just more, but a lot more, while having a much higher AC and things like absorb elements and counterspell to diminish the effects of many AOEs and spells.

They can also be an awesome face. Spells like friends, charm person, suggestion, dominate person, dominate monster and tongues aloong with split enchantment make them really good faces if built for it. As a Face a Wizard can be right up there with a Fey Wanderer, Bard or purpose-built Rogue

Now in saying this it requires a build and spell selection specific to that role.

Healer is the only role that you can't make a really good Wizard build or at least I can't figure out how.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

There are only 2 ahigh level wizard can't do: Defender and Healer

No martial character can do the Defender role, because they have no way to control anything. Wizard can have amazing melee survivability + has control through spells, so they are right away the best Defenders the game offers.

Healer I'll give, but Polymorph spells sort of work to prevent people from dropping? As long as the target didn't go down to 0 hp , in which case, with the UA now, you have Magic Initiate into Healing Word to bounce them up as a bonus action (with your regular spell slots), and then Polymorph them with your regular action.

 

[ECMO3]

Healer I'll give, but Polymorph spells sort of work to prevent people from dropping? As long as the target didn't go down to 0 hp, in which case, with the UA now, you have Magic Initiate into Healing Word to bounce them up as a bonus action (with your 1st level spell slots), and then Polymorph them with your regular action.

This would be two leveled spells in one turn and would not work.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

True, it still counts as a real spell, oops. Healing during combat would be a waste of the Wizard's time, anyway.

 

[Fanaelialae]

That's a fair point, you could use the spell that way, to grant an ally a huge buffer of temporary hit points. I'd have to know we were close to the end of a game day (or be really desperate) to do that normally- I learned to play casters a long time ago, and I've always been frugal with my spell slots. So I generally throw out a game changer once, maybe twice an encounter if at all possible in the first couple turns, and then you get cantrips out of me, lol.

That's why I zeroed in on polymorph in the first place, I figured it was a spell that could really change a fight and keep on offering benefits round by round, instead of a one and done blasty spell.

I'm the same way, which is why I love polymorph so much.

You can front load it, turning someone into a Giant Ape on round 1 (if they're amenable). You can back load it, taking an ally that's about to go down and turning them into a high HP powerhouse (and if they take a lot of damage, you can just cast it again and put them back to full). It functions as a debuff (though this is arguably its worst use). And it is also a pretty versatile utility spell (turn into a squid to retrieve something from the bottom of a lake, or into a rat to spy on someone).

If it could only do the first, it would still be a great spell. However, with all of the above I think it's a strong contender for the best 4th level spell out there.

 

[Oofta]

Not to mention at 6th or 7th level, there is etherealness. That literally allows you to walk around the dungeon and not get hurt. I used it once, and saw the DMs face, and then I never used it again. It spoiled a lot of the mystique of the dungeon he worked hard to create. The other eight players also just had to sit around as I wandered through the dungeon.

There are a few problems with etherealness though. You can't interact with the dungeon you're exploring, EDIT: ignore the following there's no way to end it before the 8 hours expires (it's not concentration, there's no "end as an action" clause), w mhether walls count as "objects" that you can pass through is up to the DM. In addition, there are monsters that do the ethereal thing like phase spiders and ghosts that can still attack you. Assuming the numbers were set up for the entire group, good luck trying to escape! Meanwhile, if the party is discovered by a patrol, they're down a wizard. Oh, there are also a few spells that would make your life difficult, at the level you're going to be casting this spell I assume many places will have things like private sanctum or forbiddence spell* permanently cast, which blocks entry by the material plane.

But I guess I don't see that big of an issue in my campaign because at most you'd probably know the layout. It's useful, but throughout history there has been an arms race where 1 type of weapon or technique was supreme only to be countered by some other technology. I assume the same would work with magic.

EDIT: I wouldn't do things like suddenly add forbiddence just to nerf a PC, I just think it's logical that if you're building a castle for example that it would just be part of the cost in a world where enemies could simply teleport into the throne room.

*The 1,000 GP cost for the materials for forbiddence is minimal in comparison to the cost of building so I have it in a fair number of structures. Private Sanctum also stops scrying, so it's another go-to for securing locations.

 

[Gammadoodler]

There are a few problems with etherealness though. You can't interact with the dungeon you're exploring, there's no way to end it before the 8 hours expires (it's not concentration, there's no "end as an action" clause), whether walls count as "objects" that you can pass through is up to the DM. In addition, there are monsters that do the ethereal thing like phase spiders and ghosts that can still attack you. Assuming the numbers were set up for the entire group, good luck trying to escape! Meanwhile, if the party is discovered by a patrol, they're down a wizard. Oh, there are also a few spells that would make your life difficult, at the level you're going to be casting this spell I assume many places will have things like private sanctum or forbiddence spell* permanently cast, which blocks entry by the material plane.

But I guess I don't see that big of an issue in my campaign because at most you'd probably know the layout. It's useful, but throughout history there has been an arms race where 1 type of weapon or technique was supreme only to be countered by some other technology. I assume the same would work with magic.

EDIT: I wouldn't do things like suddenly add forbiddence just to nerf a PC, I just think it's logical that if you're building a castle for example that it would just be part of the cost in a world where enemies could simply teleport into the throne room.

*The 1,000 GP cost for the materials for forbiddence is minimal in comparison to the cost of building so I have it in a fair number of structures. Private Sanctum also stops scrying, so it's another go-to for securing locations.

Yes there is an arms race here. But it's tricky because:

1. It is dependent on magic, and high-level magic being readily accessible to NPC characters and factions in the setting..and..
2. Outside of monks and casting subclasses, martials have not been meaningfully participating in this arms race since the invention of "thick walls" and magic doors

I agree with your efforts to thwart wanton spellcasting, and I agree that they'd be sensible measures for NPCs to implement. But to do so, they need the services of a pretty highly level npc (for a lot of settings anyway). To impede a martial, they need common stone masons and common construction materials.

 

[Oofta]

Yes there is an arms race here. But it's tricky because:

1. It is dependent on magic, and high-level magic being readily accessible to NPC characters and factions in the setting..and..
2. Outside of monks and casting subclasses, martials have not been meaningfully participating in this arms race since the invention of "thick walls" and magic doors

I agree with your efforts to thwart wanton spellcasting, and I agree that they'd be sensible measures for NPCs to implement. But to do so, they need the services of a pretty highly level npc (for a lot of settings anyway). To impede a martial, they need common stone masons and common construction materials.

Forbiddence is a 6th level spell, 11th level clerics while rare are available when it comes to things like protecting the kingdom in my games. You only need a 7th level caster for private sanctum. In addition the spell literally lasts forever unless dispelled, so all it takes is 1 cleric over potentially hundreds of years to guard against many threats.

P.S. This has nothing to do with martials, not sure why we have to keep bringing up "fighters suck" in every other thread.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Forbiddance takes a month of casting everyday to be made permanent, so you'd need a caster willing to spend a 6th level slot for a month. Definitely doable, but should be a pretty steep price.