D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Undrave]

Sure, it's bad design, but it's the design 5e is stuck with. So you do it or you(the DM) screw up the balance.

Nah, if the DM have to fix it, it’s a design issue. Or at the very least it’s an issue of badly communicating the assumptions baked into the system. This is one of those case where the transparent philosophy of 4e design is superior. I still don’t get how transparent game design, ESPECIALLY on the DM side, was such a controversial thing? “Oh no! My game feels like a game now that I know game designer worked on it using game design principle! The horror!” AUGH! You’re the DM, you’re already backstage, don’t get mad if you see the stage hands!

 

[Maxperson]

So we agree its bad design.

Bad designs should be fixed.

Can it be fixed? It seems like it's too ingrained into the system to be fixed prior to 6e. You can fix it a little bit with adjustments to casters, but that doesn't fix the problem. Encounters will still be way too easy if you don't go to 6-8.

If my engine is falling out of my car, we shouldn't be discussing how to purchase and apply the right amount of duct tape.

Sure, but sometimes you just go get a different car because you can't fix what's wrong with this one without spending as much money as a new one would cost.

 

[Maxperson]

Nah, if the DM have to fix it, it’s a design issue. Or at the very least it’s an issue of badly communicating the assumptions baked into the system. This is one of those case where the transparent philosophy of 4e design is superior. I still don’t get how transparent game design, ESPECIALLY on the DM side, was such a controversial thing? “Oh no! My game feels like a game now that I know game designer worked on it using game design principle! The horror!” AUGH! You’re the DM, you’re already backstage, don’t get mad if you see the stage hands!

I agree that it's bad design, but the fix isn't to mess with casters. The fix is to extend the time between rests to allow for the 6-8 encounters to happen. Messing with casters doesn't fix the issue at all. Encounters will still be waaaay too easy if you don't make the adjustment in time, or just give in and have lots of encounters in a 24 hour period.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Can it be fixed? It seems like it's too ingrained into the system to be fixed prior to 6e. You can fix it a little bit with adjustments to casters, but that doesn't fix the problem. Encounters will still be way too easy if you don't go to 6-8.

Sure, but sometimes you just go get a different car because you can't fix what's wrong with this one without spending as much money as a new one would cost.

Can it be fixed..who knows?

But at the very least, we can stop blaming the folks whose engines are falling out because they didn't use enough duct tape.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Sometimes I get the feeling that some people's perfect RPG rulebook is a Lisa Frank Trapper Keeper filled with blank loose leaf.

And some people find Lisa Frank too exotic for the flavor of their campaign.

 

[FrogReaver]

I guess I just disagree. There is no way a wizard will be better than a rogue or even come close to a higher level rogue* outside of edge cases. In most cases bard, monk, dex based fighter will be a better choice. Heck, a cleric with the trickery domain can make a rogue sub just as well if not better than a wizard.

*reliable talent at 11th level is kind of broken.

It’s an edge case where invisibiliy helps sneaking past the guards? It’s an edge case where teleportation let’s you get easy access or retreat where a rogue would struggle? I don’t think so.

The only part the rogue is better at is making skill checks when they come up. Which is important but skill checks are only half of what excelling at the role entails.

 

[Maxperson]

Can it be fixed..who knows?

But at the very least, we can stop blaming the folks whose engines are falling out because they didn't use enough duct tape.

They share the responsibility, though. Like it or not, the DMG gives a perfectly viable alternative rules for resting that pretty much fix the issue. If you choose not to use those rules and stick with the bad design as is, then the fault is at least partially yours. The solution is not to then "fix" casters for everyone, since a lot of us are using those optional DMG rules and have no problems with casters.

 

[FrogReaver]

Correct. The role for a rogue is exploration expert/scout. The class amplifies the role through it's abilities such that the wizard cannot match it. The same with the paladin and combat. And so on.

No it can't, because the wizard has very few class abilities in comparison, and those abilities generally aren't helpful in the various roles. Exceptions exist, like the Scribe's book, but by and large it's just spells, more spells, combat options and how do I modify a spell.

One might say spells are the wizards class abilities.

Spells cannot equal or exceed a class that is specialized in a role plus class abilities to enhance that role.

Besides expertise and reliable talent what class abilities are you talking about?

Knock will very rarely be better unless the wizard has some outside help from a party member, magic item or multiclass to allow it to not bring every monster in the area down on the party.

Less often than the others. It has drawbacks but it also only needs to be used when picking the lock failed.

My argument is not that there aren't cases, and often corner cases, where the wizard's spells can be better, but that generally they are not.

I don’t think you are giving enough credit to just what all the wizard can accomplish with spells in this arena.

No. Those sometimes things you mentioned do not do what the rogue does just as well, because you didn't take into account the other rogue abilities that enhance what the rogue does.

What other abilities?

At mid levels the rogue gets reliable talent, which is huge with the large bonuses provided by expertise and bounded accuracies generally low DCs.

I was mostly trying to stay in tier 2 since you complained about tier 3 earlier.

 

[Gammadoodler]

They share the responsibility, though. Like it or not, the DMG gives a perfectly viable alternative rules for resting that pretty much fix the issue. If you choose not to use those rules and stick with the bad design as is, then the fault is at least partially yours. The solution is not to then "fix" casters for everyone, since a lot of us are using those optional DMG rules and have no problems with casters.

I really don't get the last bit.

Is your logic that any fix made to the core systems would break your implementation of that system?

I do not understand why this needs to be true.

 

[FrogReaver]

So we agree its bad design.

Bad designs should be fixed.

If my engine is falling out of my car, we shouldn't be discussing how to purchase and apply the right amount of duct tape.

Are you really goina down duct tape?