D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[FrogReaver]

A Rogue can fill in for a fighter, any dex based PC can fill in for aRogue. Spend a feat or pick the right fighter/rogue/cleric option and you can have find familiar for scouting.

The wizard is far from the only class that can fill in a missing role.

I think the point was that the wizard has the tools to often do that role just as well if not better than the rogue, at least in aggregate.

Non casters can’t generally do that.

 

[Bill Zebub]

No offense but I think it's a bit too complicated.

"None taken." (Corporal Hicks, Aliens)

Initial designs usually are too complicated! I usually find that after I've had a while to think about a complicated design something much simpler and cleaner emerges, that captures the spirit, if not all the mechanical nuance, of the original idea.

What I would do instead is cut the number of spells you learn from your base class in half, then you create a subclass for the School Specialist where you pick a school to specialize in, and from there on your gain bonus spells OF THAT SCHOOL at each level. With the current 'copy spells for cheaper' thing.

This would cut the versatility a little and keep the specialization more meaningful.

Then your other subclasses would be able to offer OTHER THINGS than just extra spells. Some would still be able to offer extra ones of course (Like the War Wizard who could offer a free spell with an attack roll.)

Doesn't that just make it slower/harder to acquire spells automatically, but ultimately not really limit versatility if the Wizard finds books to copy from?

Certainly some of the bonuses could be relegated to subclasses, rather than being baked into the base class as options to choose from. I'm just a fan of "pick from this list at these levels" approach to customization.

 

[Oofta]

It also means contorting your story to this arbitrary format.


I dunno how you can say the 5MWD isn't a problem when you use an optional rule specifically designed to mitigate it?! Feels like admitting the normal rest system is borked.

I use the alternate rest rule for pacing purposes. I would like a more flexible system, that thread is on the other forum.

 

[FrogReaver]

"None taken." (Corporal Hicks, Aliens)

Initial designs usually are too complicated! I usually find that after I've had a while to think about a complicated design something much simpler and cleaner emerges, that captures the spirit, if not all the mechanical nuance, of the original idea.



Doesn't that just make it slower/harder to acquire spells automatically, but ultimately not really limit versatility if the Wizard finds books to copy from?

Certainly some of the bonuses could be relegated to subclasses, rather than being baked into the base class as options to choose from. I'm just a fan of "pick from this list at these levels" approach to customization.

Subclass exclusive spells would go a long way. Thought it would add alot of page count.

 

[Maxperson]

Rogue isn’t a role it’s a class. Paladin isn’t a role it’s a class. A wizard will never be a rogue. A wizard will never be a Paladin.

Correct. The role for a rogue is exploration expert/scout. The class amplifies the role through it's abilities such that the wizard cannot match it. The same with the paladin and combat. And so on.

A wizard can step into their most common roles quite often and do just as good of a job at them as those classes.

No it can't, because the wizard has very few class abilities in comparison, and those abilities generally aren't helpful in the various roles. Exceptions exist, like the Scribe's book, but by and large it's just spells, more spells, combat options and how do I modify a spell.

Spells cannot equal or exceed a class that is specialized in a role plus class abilities to enhance that role.

The first role that comes into mind for a rogue is thief - stealthy, can open locks, etc.

Is invisibility + stealth better than expertise stealth? Sometimes! WhAt about thieves tools + knock vs expertise thrives tools? Sometimes! What about dimension door to get away vs running away? Sometimes!

Knock will very rarely be better unless the wizard has some outside help from a party member, magic item or multiclass to allow it to not bring every monster in the area down on the party.

My argument is not that there aren't cases, and often corner cases, where the wizard's spells can be better, but that generally they are not.

So a wizard can’t just replicate being a theif the same way the rogue does it, but in different ways he can fulfill that role just as well.

No. Those sometimes things you mentioned do not do what the rogue does just as well, because you didn't take into account the other rogue abilities that enhance what the rogue does.

The rogue can unlock doors all day long. The wizard cannot and is going to wreck the party if he even tries because knock generally sucks now. Because of retries the rogue also gets retries on each door, so unlocking is almost as automatic as knock, but much better because no loud noise. Knock sets of traps. Traps that the rogue can find and disarm, and if that fails, will be mitigated through class abilities to do little or no damage. The wizard gets wrecked.

At mid levels the rogue gets reliable talent, which is huge with the large bonuses provided by expertise and bounded accuracies generally low DCs.

In some situations he performs better and in some worse.

Mostly worse, which is why it isn't as good or better.

Same with whatever role the Paladin or Fighter is taking on.

Yep. Mostly worse there as well.

 

[Fanaelialae]

One problem is that the 6-8 hard encounters between rests isn't "optional" it's hard wired into the encounter calculations. Not doing it will make things much easier for the party (combat wise) AND ALSO exacerbates the divide between casters and non-casters.

Since it's given such little discussion in the encounter design section (It's practically a throwaway line or 2) many DMs especially new DMs miss the significance (and can hardly be blamed for doing so). Which of course leads to the issues that cause threads like this one.

You're not wrong, but my point was that through better class design you could decrease or eliminate the discrepancy between casters and martials surrounding the 5MWD. Sure, only having one encounter per day would still make the combat easy, but at least it would be similarly easy for both casters and martials. In fairness, it seems likely that they're moving in this direction for the revision, what with the prevalence of x/proficiency bonus/day abilities.

 

[Maxperson]

So you don’t have a position? Nothing short of a single wizard that replaces three other party members would convince you that wizards are overpowered?

That's what the various people have argued. That enemies always miss their saves so that the wizard isn't wasting turns and is better in every one of the 6-8 combats. That they always have the exact spell needed on memorized with slots open to use them. That wizards can reliably fill 3-4 different roles daily.

To prove the superiority that they are saying with those things, they have to show me how all of that is true for the wizard on a daily basis. If the can prove those claims, I will concede that the wizard is superior.

 

[Maxperson]

It also means contorting your story to this arbitrary format.


I dunno how you can say the 5MWD isn't a problem when you use an optional rule specifically designed to mitigate it?! Feels like admitting the normal rest system is borked.

It's not designed to mitigate the 5MWD at all. It's designed to spread out the 6-8 encounters per day over a reasonable period of time.

 

[Oofta]

I think the point was that the wizard has the tools to often do that role just as well if not better than the rogue, at least in aggregate.

Non casters can’t generally do that.

I guess I just disagree. There is no way a wizard will be better than a rogue or even come close to a higher level rogue* outside of edge cases. In most cases bard, monk, dex based fighter will be a better choice. Heck, a cleric with the trickery domain can make a rogue sub just as well if not better than a wizard.

*reliable talent at 11th level is kind of broken.

 

[Maxperson]

You're not wrong, but my point was that through better class design you could decrease or eliminate the discrepancy between casters and martials surrounding the 5MWD. Sure, only having one encounter per day would still make the combat easy, but at least it would be similarly easy for both casters and martials. In fairness, it seems likely that they're moving in this direction for the revision, what with the prevalence of x/proficiency bonus/day abilities.

That sounds suspiciously like, "Suck it up and just let it be easy." which is not an option for a lot of us. The focus shouldn't be mitigating DM screw-ups by allowing less than 6-8 encounters per day by altering spellcasters. The focus should be figure out a way to have 6-8 encounters in-between long rests.