D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Bill Zebub]

Here's a quick sketch of an alternate Wizard class that forces a choice between specialist and generalist

At level 1:
Pick one school of magic to be proficient in. (Or should it be two because otherwise everybody will take Evocation or Necromancy?) You can use schools of magic that you are proficient in without any penalties.
Other schools don't get a proficiency bonus to attack rolls or save DCs, and additionally require more spell slots: either cast one level higher, or an additional 1st level slot to be expended (so that it can be used below 3rd level).

(Should cantrips be exempt from this restriction?)

At certain other levels (maybe whenever PB goes up?) the player gets to choose:
- A bonus to an existing school in which they are proficient:
- +1 to attack rolls and save DCs in an existing school
- Advantage on concentration in an existing school
- Re-roll 1's on damage in an existing school
- Other ideas
- Add a new school

To compensate for these restrictions, the Wizard gets two other boons:
- Spend Inspiration to be able to cast a spell (still requires a slot) that is in your spell book but that you haven't prepared.
- Counterspell and Dispel Magic are class abilities (at levels X and Y) that require an Int(Arcana) check and consume spell slots. Add the level of the spell slot to the roll.

 

[Undrave]

Here's a quick sketch of an alternate Wizard class that forces a choice between specialist and generalist

At level 1:
Pick one school of magic to be proficient in. (Or should it be two because otherwise everybody will take Evocation or Necromancy?) You can use schools of magic that you are proficient in without any penalties.
Other schools don't get a proficiency bonus to attack rolls or save DCs, and additionally require more spell slots: either cast one level higher, or an additional 1st level slot to be expended (so that it can be used below 3rd level).

(Should cantrips be exempt from this restriction?)

At certain other levels (maybe whenever PB goes up?) the player gets to choose:
- A bonus to an existing school in which they are proficient:
- +1 to attack rolls and save DCs in an existing school
- Advantage on concentration in an existing school
- Re-roll 1's on damage in an existing school
- Other ideas
- Add a new school

To compensate for these restrictions, the Wizard gets two other boons:
- Spend Inspiration to be able to cast a spell (still requires a slot) that is in your spell book but that you haven't prepared.
- Counterspell and Dispel Magic are class abilities (at levels X and Y) that require an Int(Arcana) check and consume spell slots. Add the level of the spell slot to the roll.

No offense but I think it's a bit too complicated.

What I would do instead is cut the number of spells you learn from your base class in half, then you create a subclass for the School Specialist where you pick a school to specialize in, and from there on your gain bonus spells OF THAT SCHOOL at each level. With the current 'copy spells for cheaper' thing.

This would cut the versatility a little and keep the specialization more meaningful.

Then your other subclasses would be able to offer OTHER THINGS than just extra spells. Some would still be able to offer extra ones of course (Like the War Wizard who could offer a free spell with an attack roll.)

 

[Oofta]

That's not disagreement, that's really completely orthogonal to what I'm talking about.

I'll politely bow out since we're talking at cross purposes.

Maybe I'm missing something. Nothing has to be apocalyptic to have time pressure, PCs just have to give a ****.

Tracking down a serial killer/monster of the week? Stop for a long rest and more people die. Heist/dungeon delve? Don't complete the tasks in a timely manner and reinforcements arrive/the treasure gets moved to a secure location. The list goes on.

Recent scenario had the PCs retrieving a MacGuffin. But in order to do it, they had a sequence, do A first then do B before word of A reached B. I also had an alternative C sketched out in case A didn't go as planned, so I ended up using C because things never go as planned.

All you need to do is set up logical consequences for taking a break.

So I apologize if I'm just missing the point, but I don't see how reasonable time pressure and/or logical responses to PC actions is "orthogonal" to anything. PCs can take a long rest every 24 hours. Frequently that will be a bad idea.

 

[Fanaelialae]

The 5MWD is the DM's fault and doesn't exist unless he sets it up. This is especially true in 5e where in order to preserve the balance you need to run 6-8 encounters in an adventuring day. The best way to do that is to use the optional rule to extend the adventuring day to a week, so long rests don't happen for 7 days. If the group wants to use a mansion to hole up for a night, they can go for it. They'll wake up the next morning one slot lighter for the wizard and go about their business.

Those were examples of exacerbating and mitigating factors.

There are more that I can give. How heavily the DM pressures the casters in combat (though going too far in this direction will just highlight how ineffective a fighter without Sentinel is at the defender role). How optimized the martials are versus the casters. Heck, even something like the average encounter starting distance is relevant to the power gap between martials and casters.

I have advice for mitigating the 5MWD too. Using waves of enemies to consolidate 2-4 encounters into a "single" encounter, for example. You know why I came up with advice like that (or why you use that optional rule, for that matter)? It's not because the 5MWD is a non-issue. It's because we found work arounds for the issue. Which is better than nothing. However, it's much better to fix issues than to provide optional work arounds for them.

 

[Mort]

Those were examples of exacerbating and mitigating factors.

There are more that I can give. How heavily the DM pressures the casters in combat (though going too far in this direction will just highlight how ineffective a fighter without Sentinel is at the defender role). How optimized the martials are versus the casters. Heck, even something like the average encounter starting distance is relevant to the power gap between martials and casters.

I have advice for mitigating the 5MWD too. Using waves of enemies to consolidate 2-4 encounters into a "single" encounter, for example. You know why I came up with advice like that (or why you use that optional rule, for that matter)? It's not because the 5MWD is a non-issue. It's because we found work arounds for the issue. Which is better than nothing. However, it's much better to fix issues than to provide optional work arounds for them.

One problem is that the 6-8 hard encounters between rests isn't "optional" it's hard wired into the encounter calculations. Not doing it will make things much easier for the party (combat wise) AND ALSO exacerbates the divide between casters and non-casters.

Since it's given such little discussion in the encounter design section (It's practically a throwaway line or 2) many DMs especially new DMs miss the significance (and can hardly be blamed for doing so). Which of course leads to the issues that cause threads like this one.

 

[FrogReaver]

90something percent of games don't get to tier 3. Tier 1 and 2 are all that should really be considered in this discussion. And I agree that at higher levels they can do a lot. They can't do a role better than another class, though, because the class abilities of the other classes add to the role. A rogue is more than just skills while scouting. A paladin is more than just damage in combat.

Even a high level wizard cannot be better than that class role totality.

Rogue isn’t a role it’s a class. Paladin isn’t a role it’s a class. A wizard will never be a rogue. A wizard will never be a Paladin.

A wizard can step into their most common roles quite often and do just as good of a job at them as those classes.

The first role that comes into mind for a rogue is thief - stealthy, can open locks, etc.

Is invisibility + stealth better than expertise stealth? Sometimes! WhAt about thieves tools + knock vs expertise thrives tools? Sometimes! What about dimension door to get away vs running away? Sometimes!

So a wizard can’t just replicate being a theif the same way the rogue does it, but in different ways he can fulfill that role just as well. In some situations he performs better and in some worse.

Same with whatever role the Paladin or Fighter is taking on.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Proving their absurd claims would show it. As I said.

So you don’t have a position? Nothing short of a single wizard that replaces three other party members would convince you that wizards are overpowered?

 

[Undrave]

Those were examples of exacerbating and mitigating factors.

There are more that I can give. How heavily the DM pressures the casters in combat (though going too far in this direction will just highlight how ineffective a fighter without Sentinel is at the defender role). How optimized the martials are versus the casters. Heck, even something like the average encounter starting distance is relevant to the power gap between martials and casters.

I have advice for mitigating the 5MWD too. Using waves of enemies to consolidate 2-4 encounters into a "single" encounter, for example. You know why I came up with advice like that (or why you use that optional rule, for that matter)? It's not because the 5MWD is a non-issue. It's because we found work arounds for the issue. Which is better than nothing. However, it's much better to fix issues than to provide optional work arounds for them.

One problem is that the 6-8 hard encounters between rests isn't "optional" it's hard wired into the encounter calculations. Not doing it will make things much easier for the party (combat wise) AND ALSO exacerbates the divide between casters and non-casters.

Since it's given such little discussion in the encounter design section (It's practically a throwaway line or 2) many DMs especially new DMs miss the significance (and can hardly be blamed for doing so). Which of course leads to the issues that cause threads like this one.

It also means contorting your story to this arbitrary format.

The 5MWD is the DM's fault and doesn't exist unless he sets it up. This is especially true in 5e where in order to preserve the balance you need to run 6-8 encounters in an adventuring day. The best way to do that is to use the optional rule to extend the adventuring day to a week, so long rests don't happen for 7 days. If the group wants to use a mansion to hole up for a night, they can go for it. They'll wake up the next morning one slot lighter for the wizard and go about their business.

I dunno how you can say the 5MWD isn't a problem when you use an optional rule specifically designed to mitigate it?! Feels like admitting the normal rest system is borked.

 

[Oofta]

So you don’t have a position? Nothing short of a single wizard that replaces three other party members would do it?

A Rogue can fill in for a fighter, any dex based PC can fill in for aRogue. Spend a feat or pick the right fighter/rogue/cleric option and you can have find familiar for scouting.

The wizard is far from the only class that can fill in a missing role.

 

[Maxperson]

Those were examples of exacerbating and mitigating factors.

There are more that I can give. How heavily the DM pressures the casters in combat (though going too far in this direction will just highlight how ineffective a fighter without Sentinel is at the defender role). How optimized the martials are versus the casters. Heck, even something like the average encounter starting distance is relevant to the power gap between martials and casters.

I have advice for mitigating the 5MWD too. Using waves of enemies to consolidate 2-4 encounters into a "single" encounter, for example. You know why I came up with advice like that (or why you use that optional rule, for that matter)? It's not because the 5MWD is a non-issue. It's because we found work arounds for the issue. Which is better than nothing. However, it's much better to fix issues than to provide optional work arounds for them.

You're assuming something I did not say. I do not work around the 5MWD, because it simply does not exist in my games. It's a complete non-issue.