D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

Undrave

Legend
Because you can choose to play a class that can do it all. There should be no reason you have to limit it just so it stacks up better with another class.
A character that can do it all is boring. Gameplay and challenge are born out of limitations. Why would you ever want to team up with anyone else?
So the wizard is going to take thieves tool proficiency and stealth, rather than things like Arcana, investigation, history and other skills that the wizard is much better at and the party need as much or more?
Criminal background?
 

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What? No. These aren't my requirements.
The question you responded to was literally:
What would show Wizard Superiority in your book?
Your requirements were:
I would need reasonable proof of superiority over all the rest of the party at the same time in all fields.

Show me with starting wizard spells, plus 2 new spells per level, how you can have the proper mix of spells memorized to beat the rogue at stealth, exploration and social, the cleric at cleric stuff, the fighter in combat, all in the same day. Lay out which slots are used for which spells and how they defeat all those other classes at their specialties, because I'm not seeing it.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
A character that can do it all is boring. Gameplay and challenge are born out of limitations. Why would you ever want to team up with anyone else?

Criminal background?
Sure, but you give up two skills that the wizard is better at to do it. I'm not saying that the wizard can't get those two skills. I'm saying it's subpar for the wizard to even try. There are important skills that the wizard is actually very good at that will help the party more than subpar stealth and lockpicking skills.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The question you responded to was literally:

Your requirements were:
Based on what others put forward as things wizards can do. I didn't give wizards those abilities, so I wouldn't be asking for them had they not put them forward. Those are theirs. I require them to prove their claims.
 



Fanaelialae

Legend
When 95% of the players aren't reaching those levels, why are they in a discussion about the class as a whole?

Person 1: "Wizards are broken and can do anything better than a specialist."
Person 2: "I've never seen that happen."
Person 1: "Well, it happens at level 15, so they're still broken and better at level 5!"
Person 2: "Um, it really doesn't work that way."

If you have an issue with super high levels, and as I said in other posts I haven't seen it at high levels, either, then there should be a discussion about level 7+ spells, not the class.
If you read the thread you should have seen that it was made clear multiple times that we're primarily discussing T3+ (level 11+). Someone even asked at what level the wizard becomes too good and I'm pretty sure the lowest answer was level 9.

That said, there are a lot of factors involved that can influence the level at which this happens. The leeway that magic is often extended by DMs (versus the "realistic" limits imposed on martial characters) can make this earlier. Lots of magic items for the fighter can push it later. Things like whether or not the DM limits the 5MWD, and whether they work to balance spotlight time are all relevant factors.

But the point is, if the gap between the classes in terms of design weren't so significant (I'm aware that you don't think it is, but I disagree) then all of these extraneous factors would be diminished or even eliminated. IMO, a game where the DM doesn't have to worry about the 5MWD or balancing spotlight time is one that is less work for the DM, which is a good thing.
 

Undrave

Legend
Clerics have a bunch of built in roleplay based on their chosen deity/philosophy, which colors their behavior, goals, and more.
On that point that's true... except that once fights broke out I just found myself doing the same thing over and over again. Drop a support spell that takes up my concentration, usually the same one regardless of subclass, and then plink away with my cantrip or weapon. The Cleric is another case where there is such an optimal spell list that deviating doesn't feel worth it.

AND you have to keep spell slots available to heal allies in case of emergencies so there's a feeling you have less spell slots to play with than you really do, especially early on.

There's not enough ritual in the game either, but the Cleric gets some good RP related ones, but these don't feel like they'd come up as often as the utility ones the Wizard get.
 

I'm not sure I could disagree much more. If you choose to take out a hornet nest, you don't just kick it and ask them to pretty please settle down while you take a nap.
No, but if you don't have to destroy the hornets' nest today, the advantage will be with the person who can turn up tomorrow with a smoker, long pole, bag, and head netting, rather than the one who just has bigger boots.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
If you read the thread you should have seen that it was made clear multiple times that we're primarily discussing T3+ (level 11+). Someone even asked at what level the wizard becomes too good and I'm pretty sure the lowest answer was level 9.

That said, there are a lot of factors involved that can influence the level at which this happens. The leeway that magic is often extended by DMs (versus the "realistic" limits imposed on martial characters) can make this earlier. Lots of magic items for the fighter can push it later. Things like whether or not the DM limits the 5MWD, and whether they work to balance spotlight time are all relevant factors.

But the point is, if the gap between the classes in terms of design weren't so significant (I'm aware that you don't think it is, but I disagree) then all of these extraneous factors would be diminished or even eliminated. IMO, a game where the DM doesn't have to worry about the 5MWD or balancing spotlight time is one that is less work for the DM, which is a good thing.
The 5MWD is the DM's fault and doesn't exist unless he sets it up. This is especially true in 5e where in order to preserve the balance you need to run 6-8 encounters in an adventuring day. The best way to do that is to use the optional rule to extend the adventuring day to a week, so long rests don't happen for 7 days. If the group wants to use a mansion to hole up for a night, they can go for it. They'll wake up the next morning one slot lighter for the wizard and go about their business.
 

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