D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

Nerfing the Wizard. why not if we need that!
First : Bring the Wizard on d4. Easy nerf. Historical.
Second : Reduce the number of spell slots. There is a huge amount of nerf to be found there and can be done and adjust precisely. First try, limit to one spell slot for 5th and more.
The other big question, do we apply this to all casters?

Bonus content.
Need nerf for the paladin?
Step one: Critical hits dont affect smite dice.
Step two : Only one smite per round.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I would just have more scrolls and captured spellbooks appear. Maybe with more options, the players will experiment with other spells?
This doesn't happen in my experience. What I have seen when I do that is the players will still memorize the same spells that they otherwise would. The only times that the other options come out is when 1) They hit a situation that their current selection can't handle, 2) no other party member can handle it, and 3) both of things things happen at a time when the party can rest and the wizard can swap out a spell for the one that will work. It doesn't happen often.
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
Nerfing the Wizard. why not if we need that!
First : Bring the Wizard on d4. Easy nerf. Historical.
Second : Reduce the number of spell slots. There is a huge amount of nerf to be found there and can be done and adjust precisely. First try, limit to one spell slot for 5th and more.
The other big question, do we apply this to all casters?

Bonus content.
Need nerf for the paladin?
Step one: Critical hits dont affect smite dice.
Step two : Only one smite per round.
I think discussions about nerfing spellcasters answer this thread with "yes".
 

Nerfing the Wizard. why not if we need that!
First : Bring the Wizard on d4. Easy nerf. Historical.
Second : Reduce the number of spell slots. There is a huge amount of nerf to be found there and can be done and adjust precisely. First try, limit to one spell slot for 5th and more.
The other big question, does we apply this to all casters?
the new monsters can give us a good way to do it... only 1 or 2 spells per level then 1-3 recharge on a short rest and a few at will things...
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
This doesn't happen in my experience. What I have seen when I do that is the players will still memorize the same spells that they otherwise would. The only times that the other options come out is when 1) They hit a situation that their current selection can't handle, 2) no other party member can handle it, and 3) both of things things happen at a time when the party can rest and the wizard can swap out a spell for the one that will work. It doesn't happen often.
Hm. Unfortunate. I was perfectly happy to experiment with different spells, because I like being more creative. For example, when I realized I couldn't afford to have a damage spell at every level, and would need to upcast from time to time, I gave my Sorcerer Erupting Earth instead of Fireball.

I used to see a lot of wild experimentation in AD&D, where there was a plethora of unique spells one could find. Maybe the problem is that it's become easier to decide what the "best" spell is (or there's easy access to guides where someone else has figured out the math for you)?
 

the new monsters can give us a good way to do it... only 1 or 2 spells per level then 1-3 recharge on a short rest and a few at will things...
if we reduce to the ground spell slot number, we can have one spell slot for each level from 1th to 9th. Which is close to a 4ed character combined utility and attack daily power.
it’s the loop back to 4ed. A kind of heresy!
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Bonus content.
Need nerf for the paladin?
Step one: Critical hits dont affect smite dice.
Step two : Only one smite per round.

IME this isn't that necessary. The Paladin's damage is flashy but it's quite limited by spell slots. A fighter, especially one focused on damage, can easily outpace a paladin over the course of the adventuring day. Especially if the Paladin wants to do anything other than smite.

Though, from what we've seen of the playtest, taking away crits on anything but weapon damage is exactly where things are headed.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
if we reduce to the ground spell slot number, we can have one spell slot for each level from 1th to 9th. Which is close to a 4ed character combined utility and attack daily power.
it’s the loop back to 4ed. A kind of heresy!

I'm not actually against this (in theory) but you would have to Drastically change encounter design/ expectations.

Otherwise, you'd have the wizard hoarding spell slots to the point where encounters become REALLY swingy depending on whether resources are expended or not.

That, and, unless the DM controls the pace of play well, it actually won't have THAT much impact at the table -so there would have to be good guidelines, tools, for ensuring DMs (especialy new DMs) can/know how to, do that.
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
We could ask WotC that question, given how much they seem to like using the Forgotten Realms!

I’m confused what you mean by that. FR is a highly magical setting, which means countermeasures against wizards would be understood, affordable, and common.

It’s the low-magic realms where RAW PC Wizards would be less opposed.
 





Mort

Legend
Supporter
The Actual encounter system is not useful, not used and/or not appreciated.
So a change would be fine.

Sort of.

It's not properly explained, nor is properly how to customize/change it. That's one of the big problems with the current DMG - it is extremely user unfriendly (for the stuff that truly matters) especially to new DMs.
 
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Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”

Ah, now I got it. Not sure if lore from a previous edition is relevant, but if it is then what it “proves” is that there is in fact demand for such information.
 


Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Demand, yes. An active Wizard mafia that will hunt you down to the ends of Faerun to prevent the supply? Also yes.
Ok, and if in your campaign they are successfully able to do that, not just to Volo but to anybody who dares to challenge their power, then I guess your world has a problem with Wizards being too powerful.

It’s an incredibly easy problem to fix, but that’s a choice.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Well the Dungeon Dudes finished a video series about the party role tier rankings of every class. They rated the capability of each class in each of the 7 party roles that they decided before subclasses and purposeful building into a direction.

Now I think there are more than 7 roles in traditional D&D.

ClassFrontlineDamageInvestigator
ExplorerUtility NegotiatorSupport
ClericBBB/CDBBS/A
FighterASDDDDD
RogueC/DABBAA/BAD
WizardDBS/ABSCA/B


Granted this is the view of just 2 guys. However it kinda supports my point. The Wizard isn't all that but it can get into many party roles at a high strength. Then with builds and subclasses, the Wizard could bump up their tier. In the stereotypical party, the Wizard is owns 2 roles and has major contribution in 3 more.

In Contrast, the Fighter is only good in 2 roles (best in one). However they are so far behind at base at everything else, they are the worse at getting into other roles. The Fighter own combat bu is mostly shut out of every other role due to the cost.

One observation they made and I mentioned is that Skills is less a factor as everyone can get proficiency.. You need expertise, proper ability score, or magic to really take over a role your class wasn't built for.
 

IME this isn't that necessary. The Paladin's damage is flashy but it's quite limited by spell slots. A fighter, especially one focused on damage, can easily outpace a paladin over the course of the adventuring day. Especially if the Paladin wants to do anything other than smite.

Though, from what we've seen of the playtest, taking away crits on anything but weapon damage is exactly where things are headed.
I'm not sure I see that. The Paladin is still swinging the same weapon, with the same Fighting Style and damage bonus as the Fighter.
Even looking at the Battlemaster and assuming the apparently rather unusual full two-short-rest adventuring day, the point at which a Paladin gets more d8s through smites as the battlemaster gets d8s through superiority dice is only 5th level.

The actual damage potential will vary with level. Depending on Action Surge and the extra ASI that the Fighter gets or the Paladin levelling into new spell slots. I don't see an equivalent Fighter "easily outpace" a Paladin.
 

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