D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Soooo…you want spells in everything but name?

If that's what you want to call it. I want to cut out the BS hoops GM's want to throw up to prevent martials from doing cool things. "Make a roll to hit. With a penalty! Oh, also they get a strength roll to resist being disarmed! Aaaand also they have a locking gauntlet that grants a +4 bonus!"

Like I said, you can have it both ways with "this triggers on a roll that exceeds the target AC by 5/10 OR if you spend a resource".

 

[Undrave]

I could see bringing back henchmen/hirelings for Fighters only. That would be kinda cool

It is kinda cool! But it's also a HUUUUUGE pain in the butt to manage. Managing those 8 wolves without slowing down the table was stressful. It’s part of why I would have my wolves paired off and I would just point a guy and roll my two attack with advantage to resolve them one by one. And on the crack back, I wouldn’t even track which wolf got hurt in detail! I’d abstract it by deducing HP from a list and just ask the DM which wolf he wants to knock out when enough HP was down. After a while I went down from 8 wolves to like 4 Dire Wolves or like...2 giant spiders or something.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I am still trying to figure out what they want -- in game mechanics -- that martials don't have. There is all kinds of vague talk but no one has come out and explained what sort of mechanics they want. I thought it was maneuvers, which LevelUp has, but that doesn't seem to sate them.

Monk but armored weapon user without the shaolin baggage. No, a monk subclass won't work, there's not enough space and too much built in kung fu tropes.

The ability to declare stuff in game. "My contacts, that I spend character resources on, do this" Mythic skill usage. Running up walls, jumping 50' at will.

Your guys adamant refusal to see the game in any terms other than "Spells, which can do anything" and "Only stuff Paul Blart Mall Cop could attempt" baffles me.

 

[Maxperson]

Many days played out in our games don't even have fights. Are you having 6-8 brawls break out daily during intrigue/diplomacy/downtime days? During downtime the rogue might try gathering information and maybe gets a skill check. The wizard craps out fabricated gear, changes their appearance and reads thoughts, scries, etc. That doesn't run them out of superpowers, which recharge the next day.

5E D&D works best as a hack and slash dungeon crawl. The further you get from that, the more casters dominate.

Which is a problem created by the DM. In 5e you either run 6-8 encounters per adventuring day, or you cause an imbalance that favors casters. If the idea of that many encounters in a 24 hour period doesn't appeal to you(very common), then you need to engage alternate rest rules. The gritty one long rest per week gives you 7 days to have those 6-8 encounters. Or you can do what I do and just wait until the encounters are done, whether that's 1 day or 1 month and then give a long rest.

If you refuse to use the above methods, then you are the one at fault for the caster imbalance, not the game. The game doesn't need to change casters to accommodate you. I personally hope that 6e doesn't balance the game this way as I hate it.

 

[Giant Octopodes]

Nice list.

Most of this seems like it should be doable in 5e.

Sundering a weapon is something that should be able to happen if the target is already "bloodied", and getting sloppy.

Being at zero hit points without being unconscious or dying seems doable too: helpless without hemorrhaging.

Damage along with a push is doable.

Blocking to prevent an attack is like the dodge action or parry maneuver.

Attacked when entering melee, seems like a readied action to use a reaction.

A chokehold is damage during grappling.



In any case, I feel D&D should − with reasonably simple and intuitive mechanics − be able to represent the above combat narrative.

Agreed. Damaging while disarming or shoving is incredibly doable with existing mechanics, just needs to be allowed.
More granular grapple targets and add-on effects is simple enough. Just choose what limb or body part you're grappling during normal grapple checks. While the grapple persists, that limb or body part is not usable. Easy, intuitive, and makes grappling quite effective. If you choose the neck, if the target is not immune to suffocation, see page 183, but replace "minutes" with "rounds".
Damaging to escape a grapple really should already be a thing imho - while grappling something, after taking damage, make a Con or Str check (your choice) to maintain your grapple, same rules as Wizards and Concentration checks. Gives folks meaningful outs to the above.
Attacks while entering melee, Polearm Master just needs to not be needlessly tied to one weapon type.
Being Incapacitated rather than Unconscious when knocked to 0 until / unless specifically knocked out afterwards imho should be the default behavior.

Using the environment to gain advantage and / or deal additional damage, and specifically disabling body parts, is a bit tougher, but that's more than 70% of the list with just a few sentences of added rules. I definitely feel that, for the most part, D&D absolutely could support more complex and varied options for martial characters without significant additional lift, maintenance, or rules. I'll check out LevelUp and see what I can see, but stuff like the above is such low hanging fruit that for now I just houserule it, doesn't change the fact I'd love to see it baked into the core game. Anyway don't mean to tangent too much, plenty of threads to discuss this kind of stuff, was just trying to provide specific examples to the inquiry posed.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Which is a problem created by the DM. In 5e you either run 6-8 encounters per adventuring day, or you cause an imbalance that favors casters. If the idea of that many encounters in a 24 hour period doesn't appeal to you(very common), then you need to engage alternate rest rules. The gritty one long rest per week gives you 7 days to have those 6-8 encounters. Or you can do what I do and just wait until the encounters are done, whether that's 1 day or 1 month and then give a long rest.

If you refuse to use the above methods, then you are the one at fault for the caster imbalance, not the game. The game doesn't need to change casters to accommodate you. I personally hope that 6e doesn't balance the game this way as I hate it.

Or maybe they designed a bad system of resource management built on boring ass MMO trash fights with no stakes that aren't fun. People aren't playing it for a reason. WOTC knows it, they admit it. When will you guys?

"You only get a rest whenever the DM says" is unsatisfying from a Gamist, Narrativist and Simulationist standpoint and just admitting defeat.

 

[Maxperson]

Wizards are ridiculous because they can dominate in exploration/social pretty easily (or just invalidate social in a lot of cases, why ask when you can just combine the right spells), and they're absolutely every bit as good as martials, or better, in combat. You don't even mention summons, which is absolutely wild.

Wizards cannot dominate exploration and social easily AND also dominate fights. In order to dominate the other two pillars, they are using most of their spell slots to do so. If they then dominate a fight or two of the 6-8 encounters, they are using cantrips for the rest. Or they can sparingly nurse their remaining slots and do decently, but still be well behind the martials.

 

[Maxperson]

Or maybe they designed a bad system of resource management built on boring ass MMO trash fights with no stakes that aren't fun. People aren't playing it for a reason. WOTC knows it, they admit it. When will you guys?

They didn't. 5e does not play like an MMO and the fights don't play like trash mobs. It was just balanced around resource management and hit points, which necessitated the 6-8 encounter rule. It's a bad one, but one we are stuck with and won't change until at least 6e.

If you want to handle it, you have to change how long rests work.

"You only get a rest whenever the DM says" is unsatisfying from a Gamist, Narrativist and Simulationist standpoint and just admitting defeat.

It is unsatisfying, but it's what we have. Or we let casters nova and beat out martials. Casters should not be changed because you refuse to run balanced encounters and let them run roughshod over martials.

 

[Bill Zebub]

If that's what you want to call it. I want to cut out the BS hoops GM's want to throw up to prevent martials from doing cool things. "Make a roll to hit. With a penalty! Oh, also they get a strength roll to resist being disarmed! Aaaand also they have a locking gauntlet that grants a +4 bonus!"

Like I said, you can have it both ways with "this triggers on a roll that exceeds the target AC by 5/10 OR if you spend a resource".

See, I want situational maneuvers as a player. I really hate rationing per rest resources, so I rarely play casters. But I like deciding whether to use Reckless Attack, or how to get sneak attack when caught out in the open, or if I should shove instead of attack. Knowing I can use all of them as often as I want. I want these kinds of mechanics because they are fun for me as a player.

I genuinely don’t understand the attitude of “BS hoops to prevent martials from having cool things.” I wouldn’t play D&D if I were as bitter and cynical as that sounds.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Anyway, Bring back NADs!

It was a grim day when they took away martial classes' nads.