D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Undrave]

I couldn't quite figure out how to put into words, but here goes. I think wizards are both overestimated while still being arguably the most powerful class in the game. White room discussion does often ignores hurdles that wizards have to face in game (having/prepping the right spells, figuring out which spells will be most effective in certain situations, legendary resistance/successful saving throws), but the arguments are technically right that a perfectly played wizard could do everything that is being argued. I'm sure after 9 pages this has probably already been mentioned to be fair.

Another issue is that it often feels like the designers have a Wizard bias.

We've been told that the lead designer for 4e had to FIGHT his team to not make the Wizard overpowered! The 5e Wizard had EIGHT subclasses in the PHB (even though most of them could have been collapsed into a single subclass), the Spell section is HUGE and the Wizard gets the lionshare of that section of the book, geting more exclusive spells than any of class, in fact, more than the Paladin, Ranger and Bard COMBINED... meanwhile the Sorcerer has ZERO exclusive spells. (that is, out of the data of the PHB1). Spells are continuously added through the various books, but it took until Tasha to see a new Fighting Style? Or a good selection of feats?

And the Wizard fans often seem very vocal and will actively send feedback to WOTC and get listened to (see the uproar over the Sorcerer getting just a FRACTION of the Wizard's flexibility!).

It's hard to look at that and not feel like the Wizard is the Golden Boy class, rght? I think that feeling feed into that overestimation you mentionned.

All that for a class who's entire flavor text can be reduced to 'Is a nerd, has a book with extra spells in it."

 

[James Gasik]

That's why you have to lengthen long rests to once a week or just when 6-8 encounters are done. You can't leave it at 24 hours.

Wouldn't this approach wreak havoc with spell durations? A spell that lasts 8 hours, like Mage Armor, suddenly becomes a lot less useful if I don't a long rest for 2-3 days. I always assumed 5e was built with an assumption that 1 game day = 24 hours.

 

[Maxperson]

Wouldn't this approach wreak havoc with spell durations? A spell that lasts 8 hours, like Mage Armor, suddenly becomes a lot less useful if I don't a long rest for 2-3 days. I always assumed 5e was built with an assumption that 1 game day = 24 hours.

They have time variants in the DMG that lengthen it, so the game must be designed to handle it. And yes, it does make Mage Armor less useful, but it's a small price to pay to have better overall balance among the classes and vs. the monsters.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

Another issue is that it often feels like the designers have a Wizard bias.

We've been told that the lead designer for 4e had to FIGHT his team to not make the Wizard overpowered! The 5e Wizard had EIGHT subclasses in the PHB (even though most of them could have been collapsed into a single subclass), the Spell section is HUGE and the Wizard gets the lionshare of that section of the book, geting more exclusive spells than any of class, in fact, more than the Paladin, Ranger and Bard COMBINED... meanwhile the Sorcerer has ZERO exclusive spells. (that is, out of the data of the PHB1). Spells are continuously added through the various books, but it took until Tasha to see a new Fighting Style? Or a good selection of feats?

And the Wizard fans often seem very vocal and will actively send feedback to WOTC and get listened to (see the uproar over the Sorcerer getting just a FRACTION of the Wizard's flexibility!).

It's hard to look at that and not feel like the Wizard is the Golden Boy class, rght? I think that feeling feed into that overestimation you mentionned.

All that for a class who's entire flavor text can be reduced to 'Is a nerd, has a book with extra spells in it."

Kinda yah. I think there is probably a lot to it. The Wizard is one of the "core 4", so to speak, and going back even further is one of the first two classes the game had. It gets a lot of legacy love. In addition, the flavor text you mention is pretty helpful, in that basically the wizard's flavor text is "Good with magic." That means it's pretty easy to justify adding a spell to their list unless it again, doesn't match the legacy (No Healing for You!) or is designed as an exclusive spell. And it's very simple to come up with a idea for a new spell, as we can see in every new splatbook.

 

[Dausuul]

I couldn't quite figure out how to put into words, but here goes. I think wizards are both overestimated while still being arguably the most powerful class in the game. White room discussion does often ignores hurdles that wizards have to face in game (having/prepping the right spells, figuring out which spells will be most effective in certain situations, legendary resistance/successful saving throws), but the arguments are technically right that a perfectly played wizard could do everything that is being argued. I'm sure after 9 pages this has probably already been mentioned to be fair.

The flip side is that casters have a lot more tools to take advantage of unusual features of an encounter--the sort of thing that doesn't show up in white rooms.

In our last session, we were examining a murdered elf lord's body and triggered a magical trap where the body became a gateway to another plane and monsters started coming through. There was a room nearby that was warded against planar travel; I grabbed the corpse, cast dimension door to teleport to a spot right outside the warded room, and shoved the corpse inside, cutting off all but the couple of monsters that had already come through.

A noncaster would not have been able to take advantage of that situation. Obviously that was a one-off... but I've seen a lot of one-offs like that. (Dimension door is responsible for quite a chunk; it's one of the best spells in the game IMO. Yet in a white room, spending your entire turn and a 4th-level slot just moving from point A to point B looks like an awful waste.)

 

[Bill Zebub]

The flip side is that casters have a lot more tools to take advantage of unusual features of an encounter--the sort of thing that doesn't show up in white rooms.

In our last session, we were examining a murdered elf lord's body and triggered a magical trap where the body became a gateway to another plane and monsters started coming through. There was a room nearby that was warded against planar travel; I grabbed the corpse, cast dimension door to teleport to a spot right outside the warded room, and shoved the corpse inside, cutting off all but the couple of monsters that had already come through.

A noncaster would not have been able to take advantage of that situation. Obviously that was a one-off... but I've seen a lot of one-offs like that. (Dimension door is responsible for quite a chunk; it's one of the best spells in the game IMO. Yet in a white room, spending your entire turn and a 4th-level slot just moving from point A to point B looks like an awful waste.)

Wow. How strong is your wizard?

We had a situation recently where we had to flee, and the 16 Str barbarian grabbed the unconscious warlock, and the DM made him make an athletics roll.

 

[DND_Reborn]

It was a simple question, not an attempt to argue endlessly.

Sure, but that is how it always begins with you.

You've declared that the DM intentionally breaking game balance is not the DM's fault, so I'm just curious whose fault that is.

No one has to be "at fault", it is simply the experience of things. High level spells are simply more powerful than what martials PCs are capable of. Many people don't like that and find it unbalanced.

So, that's all you get. Any more would just start feeding into the "endless argument." Cheers.

 

[DND_Reborn]

No offense intended. It was just surprising timing, when more than one person asked.

Ok, thanks, that is reasonable. I just found it odd.

I do like your Fighter stuff. I think you have a knack for both its flavor and balanced mechanics.

The "seriously" part is. Why not use your talent to design Fighter features that function well alongside casters at tiers 13-16 and 17-20?

It depends on how far the Fighter features have to go before they are deemed to "function well" along side 7th-9th level spells.

I've proposed features that IMO already do, but many times receive little response about them. For example, if a tier 4 STR 20 Fighter could lift over 4000 lb., run over 40 mph, and leap well over 100 feet, is that "enough"? If they could attack 12 times a round, is that "enough"? And so forth.

In some of the things people have posted related to Anime-style features, it is so incredibly over the top that it holds absolutely no appeal for me. Such things are not "D&D" to me.

 

[DND_Reborn]

That's why you have to lengthen long rests to once a week or just when 6-8 encounters are done. You can't leave it at 24 hours.

So, just so you know I gave you a "Laugh" for this because I find it so ironic. You say things are balanced as they are, but then enforce changing them (bolded).

 

[DND_Reborn]

Wow. How strong is your wizard?

We had a situation recently where we had to flee, and the 16 Str barbarian grabbed the unconscious warlock, and the DM made him make an athletics roll.

In 5E a STR 8 character can lift, drag, pull up to 240 lb, so not that strong really.

IMO you DM really probably shouldn't have asked for the roll unless there were other circumstances. Maybe they wanted the roll just to make the situation more tense?