D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[NotAYakk]

I owe @NotAYakk a detailed response on the same topic, but this is only true if you both know what those saves are and have those spells prepared.

Sure.

How hard is it to guess the low saves of a creature from even a cursory description or a tiny bit of knowledge?

A 30 foot tall giant isn't likely to have a super dex save. A golem or programmed automaton is probably going to not have a high intelligence. Etc.

Even barring common sense, if the DM doesn't hide their rolls, it is a round or two to find a weak save; and unless every foe is a unique snowflake, you'll figure things out pretty quickly.

That leaves a situation where a creature is misleading in its strengths and weaknesses and the DM hides all rolls and it is a unique snowflake never to be seen before or again. Then all you can do is try and presume misses align with stronger saves, or just use no-save spellcasting tactics (which still exist in 5e).

But at this point, you are making the spellcasters life as hard as you can. And that is possible! The DM can make everything occur in an anti-magic field.

 

[Medic]

Are we really going to call that 'super' strength?

Actually strong, yes. But 'super'?

With a Belt of Storm Giant Strength (29 Strength), a human being can lift a total of 870 lbs.

There are people in real life that are stronger than someone with a Belt of Storm Giant Strength.

 

[James Gasik]

Sometimes I think debates here get as contentious as they do because of a delusion that WotC designers are reading along, taking notes.

“If only I can win the Warlord debate, WotC will take notice…”

Man wouldn't that be nice, could really put an end to these debates too. But instead it's just a ride that never ends, with people who seem to think: "If I don't get these people to shut up about Psionics, WotC will put in the new PHB!".

 

[Yaarel]

Sometimes I think debates here get as contentious as they do because of a delusion that WotC designers are reading along, taking notes.

“If only I can win the Warlord debate, WotC will take notice…”

Heh, winning a debate hardly means the designers agree.

But designers have mentioned reading forums. They used to actively participate, but for reasons of PR and being genuinely busy, less so now. A notable thread probably gets mentioned to the designers.

 

[Yaarel]

Are we really going to call that 'super' strength?

Actually strong, yes. But 'super'?

In my eyes, any ability score above 18 is superhuman − thus "super".

It is fair to say that giants have super strength.

 

[Oofta]

With a Belt of Storm Giant Strength (29 Strength), a human being can lift a total of 870 lbs.

There are people in real life that are stronger than someone with a Belt of Storm Giant Strength.

Dead lifts are a one and done thing, with a very well balanced weight, that you hold over your head for a moment. It's done by people who've spent year perfecting this one thing.

It has little to do with a generic "you can lift X pounds" when the object could be anything from a boulder to a 20 foot long log to a squirming opponent. You can also do it all day long.

Besides, the numbers for lifting (or jumping) were made as "you can do this automatically" and were done more for simplicity than accuracy. Want to lift more than you can without straining? That's what athletic checks are for.

People really get worked up about the strangest things in a game with dragons and things that literally go bump in the night. What level of detail and accuracy would be enough?

P.S. also, what does it have to do with wizards?

 

[Medic]

Dead lifts are a one and done thing, with a very well balanced weight, that you hold over your head for a moment. It's done by people who've spent year perfecting this one thing.

It has little to do with a generic "you can lift X pounds" when the object could be anything from a boulder to a 20 foot long log to a squirming opponent. You can also do it all day long.

Besides, the numbers for lifting (or jumping) were made as "you can do this automatically" and were done more for simplicity than accuracy. Want to lift more than you can without straining? That's what athletic checks are for.

I'm well aware that it's possible for a player character to comfortably perform numerous feats of athleticism whilst comfortably hauling around 100kg of equipment.

People really get worked up about the strangest things in a game with dragons and things that literally go bump in the night. What level of detail and accuracy would be enough?

P.S. also, what does it have to do with wizards?

One poster said that belts give "super" strength. A different user questioned whether or not that would constitute "super." I respond by pointing out that, in the most extreme scenario, while a PC with 29 Strength would be a remarkable specimen, their prowess would not be so far removed from the apex of human ability that we would recognize it as simply impossible, a feat that us mere flesh and blood mortals are incapable of.

 

[Maxperson]

Since non-combat encounters count towards the encounter budget, he is using at least one high level spell per combat. Precisely the ones that have a higher impact than the fighter’s consistent attacks. Still not seeing what he’s giving up.

The 6-8 encounter budget is entirely combat. If you are going to use some non-combat encounters, they must require the use of resources to overcome, so the wizard is still using up slots or he is being subpar.

 

[Maxperson]

Let's just look at the numbers quickly. Note, i'm not arguing with you, I am curious.

Let's assume 1d10+1d6+8 for damage (magic versatile longsword with some sort of elemental damage) at 8 attacks is 136 points of damage. The chance to miss is present but negligible, so let's call it 90% of that for 122 points.

Meteor Swarm does 40d6 damage for 140 on average, but with a low chance of half damage. if there is a 20% chance of failing the save that puts us at the same 90% for 126. Comparable to single foe but of course meteor swarm can hit (optimally) 64 foes as well as hit flying enemies. I think the wizard does the fighters job here better.

Most fighters I've seen use great weapon fighting, but they also are either champions with an18-20 crit range at that level, or battle masters with extra d8s and an effect. That damage is low.

 

[Maxperson]

I mean, that is kinda the problem though. An 18th level Wizard can have Jump as an at will spell and so becomes better than the guy we would expect to be the physical athlete. The fact that most people would call that a poor use of the ability doesn't really make the Champion better.

How many 18th level wizards do you imagine pick Jump?