D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[James Gasik]

I miss the old days, when you could just polymorph another party member as a buff. But now that you lose all your class abilities, I can't get anyone to accept it!

 

[Vaalingrade]

Nope. I'm just not using DM fiat to make the spell more than it is.

So instead, you're using DM fiat to make it something it definitely isn't and was never intended to be.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I miss the old days, when you could just polymorph another party member as a buff. But now that you lose all your class abilities, I can't get anyone to accept it!

I view it more akin to a heal in 5e. I had the same issue when I played my first wizard. Then we ran into a large group of giants. I was kiting one of the giants around, but the front line was taking a beating, one unlucky guy in particular. He was one hit from going down, so I turned him into a Giant Ape. This same guy who had refused to be polymorphed preemptively, was suddenly extremely stoked about the idea. That was all it took to pivot the fight from one that seemed like a probable TPK to a mop up action (albeit, one that came at a heavy cost).

 

[Scott Christian]

I have level up and am impressed by many of the changes.

But we are currently talking about the WoTC D&D fighter.

And before you say "never happen" it's already started to. Tasha's dipped a toe in the water with out of combat maneuvers. And it certainly looks like the playtest is also moving in that direction with more (and earlier) feat options along with more specific benefits and choices for fighters - we'll see how that goes.

Not to interject in your debate with @Reynard , but personally this is where games start to lose traction with many players. This of 3.5 and all of its additions. Those were specifically designed to make the classes something they are not. So now, instead of 2 pages a new player needs to read, or a player that just plays, they have 10. Now, instead of two choices they have to make, they have 20.

And again, as a last note - this is about wizards being all that.

 

[James Gasik]

I view it more akin to a heal in 5e. I had the same issue when I played my first wizard. Then we ran into a large group of giants. I was kiting one of the giants around, but the front line was taking a beating, one unlucky guy in particular. He was one hit from going down, so I turned him into a Giant Ape. This same guy who had refused to be polymorphed preemptively, was suddenly extremely stoked about the idea. That was all it took to pivot the fight from one that seemed like a probable TPK to a mop up action (albeit, one that came at a heavy cost).

That's a fair point, you could use the spell that way, to grant an ally a huge buffer of temporary hit points. I'd have to know we were close to the end of a game day (or be really desperate) to do that normally- I learned to play casters a long time ago, and I've always been frugal with my spell slots. So I generally throw out a game changer once, maybe twice an encounter if at all possible in the first couple turns, and then you get cantrips out of me, lol.

That's why I zeroed in on polymorph in the first place, I figured it was a spell that could really change a fight and keep on offering benefits round by round, instead of a one and done blasty spell.

 

[Scott Christian]

A lot of this conversation just sounds like a "Aha! Gotcha wizard! You memorized the wrong spells!" or "Aha! I'm going to force you wizard to stay and have this combat!" or "Aha! You can't use that here wizard, I have something in pace that negates that!" or "Aha! I am going to twist your words around wizard so your spell doesn't work like it should!"

I am not sure how this adds any sense of fun or tension to the game. Especially when the rules for the spells are such they are meant to be used, meant to be versatile, and meant to be powerful.

It sounds like a game of DM gotcha, which in my experience, is just frustrating, despite the narrative tension the DM thinks they are creating. I think sometimes they confuse player tension with character tension.

 

[Scott Christian]

Find familiar is a 1st level ritual with great utility on this front. Barely any resource cost whatever.

Arcane eye is mid level at best and will map out an area at little risk. Plus if the wizard is a divination wizard, they get some slots back just for casting it. It requires no knowledge of the terrain.

scrying is 5th and does require SOME knowledge but it's not fully essential (though it will make the save harder).

If time is not a factor, they scout 1 day and do what they need to do the next. Resource cost averted.

And no one is saying there's no resource cost, just that the Wizard has many options and the fighter has few-none.

Not to mention at 6th or 7th level, there is etherealness. That literally allows you to walk around the dungeon and not get hurt. I used it once, and saw the DMs face, and then I never used it again. It spoiled a lot of the mystique of the dungeon he worked hard to create. The other eight players also just had to sit around as I wandered through the dungeon.

 

[James Gasik]

It comes down to the fact that many spells have very powerful effects, so rather than run roughshod over the game, some DM's have decided to take a legalistic approach, and not cut magic any slack. Which, I admit, I tend to do myself a lot, because I'm used to shoddily worded spells with way too much text, but that still manage to have tons of corner cases (like in the AD&D and 3e eras).

Sometimes, however, you run into situations that make zero sense, like being able to run through a Flaming Sphere occupying a square in front of you, because it can somehow only deal damage on the caster's turn...

 

[James Gasik]

Not to mention at 6th or 7th level, there is etherealness. That literally allows you to walk around the dungeon and not get hurt. I used it once, and saw the DMs face, and then I never used it again. It spoiled a lot of the mystique of the dungeon he worked hard to create. The other eight players also just had to sit around as I wandered through the dungeon.

Passwall was another one that caused issues back in the day. Or how about when a player decides to attack load bearing structures with Soften Earth and Stone, Transmute Rock to Mud, Stone Shape, Disintegrate, or just start tossing Dig around?*

*Some of these might not be spells anymore, but it's just the kind of shenanigans I've had to put up with over the years, lol.

 

[Scott Christian]

It's a bad niche is what it is.

I think this could be said more layered. Like: "Thei niche doesn't work well at our table." Because, their versatility, even if loopy from a game design standpoint, is spot on for every table I have ever been at.

It's fine if their versatility was in their build, but it is also in their day to day load out. You can pick the Diviner for the cool ability and then not pick a single Divination spell and never prepare one if you so choose. What do you loose from that? Maybe it costs more to copy your spells? Big whoop. A Fighter can be built in a myriads of ways, even just out of the PHB, but they can't just switch build mid adventure as if it was like changing a shirt.

It also results in a bland class who's apparently so defined by being 'The Bestest at Magic' that any nerfs is seen as making the class not Wizardly enough. Wizard fans probably won't admit it, but they LIKE to be OP, they THRIVE on being able to destroy a DM's plans entirely with 1 spell they were 'good enough' to prepare for that day. If they can't be OP they whine.

I feel like a lot of players like to destroy the Dm's plans. But good players like to destroy them within the narrative, which for most DMs I know, is a blast when it happens. But you are right, the wizard can destroy many DM plans unless the DM painstakingly puts things into place to prevent it - which imo, is not very fun.
As for players playing the wizard, I am not sure if that is true. Most players I know enjoy the class's versatility and try to use it creatively. But they are rarely so overpowered or hogging the limelight that the other players get upset.