D&D 5E (2014) Are Wizards really all that?

[leozg]

OP is fully related to class power. Some are just answering NO justifying that not everyone bases the character they want to play upon the power of the class. Can't understand how it contributes to the discussion.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Pick one. Resource numbers change with every level.

Okay. 20th level then.

 

[Minigiant]

Yeah. The fighter just has too many things to do in combat. I mean a 3rd level Battle Master with 2 short rests has 3 action surges and and 12 superiority dice to use his 4 different maneuvers with. 15 things to spread over 8 encounters compared to the 3rd level wizard with his 4 1st level spells and 2 2nd level spells, plus another 1st level spell from his magic recovery ability. The fighter gets more than double. The fiend!

Half the problem is that a superiority dice has less than the power of a 1st level spell.

Fighting Intiatiate = Martial Adept = 2 manuever + 1 superior dice = Magic Initiate = 2 cantrips and 1st level spell
Second wind is a level 1 spell.
Action Surge is your highest spell

Converted to dailies the 6th level wizard and fighter has

Wizard 4/3/3 for slots
Fighter 6/0/3 for slots

 

[Oofta]

OP is fully related to class power. Some are just answering NO justifying that not everyone bases the character they want to play upon the power of the class. Can't understand how it contributes to the discussion.

Not sure who you're talking about. I've played martial characters up to level 20. Occasionally the wizard did cool things, my character kicked butt all day long. Being different, having a different role doesn't make them better.

 

[ECMO3]

The ability to get from another class without losing much that is versatility a property of the class contributes to that (being a caster). A martial type cannot sensibly take 3 levels of fighter and 4 levels of paladin and 3 levels of monk without nerfing himself out of extra attacks.

Cantrips and smites can make up a lot of that ground.

Take Eldritch Knight and mercy monk combine booming blade with smites and either hands of harm and ki fueled attack or step of the wind to land movement damage and I think you will be doing more to melee opponents over the course of a day than a similarly weaponed fighter getting extra attack.

 

[ECMO3]

Because for a lot of roles, there is only room for 1 PC to perform the role.

For example,outside of an intrigue game there will only be enough Face challenges for one person to feel like the Face. There will be times when the chosen Face isn't optimal (Druid/ranger talking to animal/plants, dwarf talking to dwarf, only John speaks Celestial etc.). But the players wanted to play a face and..

Harsh Truth

untill the campaign is built around the social or exploration pillars, there typically is one enough room for 1 PC to do Role and feel like they are playing it. Some of the can do 2 (ie Wilderness Explorer and Dungeon Explorer)

D&D isn't Fate or Exalted. The noncombat roles are narrow and shallow. Heck the DMG and PHB don't even really have modules and variant for them.

D&D typically can't run 2 Faces or 3 Sages or 4 Explorers.

That is nonsense, and if I have a party with 4 faces and no healers that just means the "face" challenges are going to be easier and the challanges that require healing are going to be more difficult, but in a good game many challenges have more than one way through them

I have been in parties, to include on published adventures with more than 2 faces and with 4 explorers.

I am playing in a Icewind Dale campaign right now and we have 3 faces - A Paladin, a Warlock and my scout Rogue with a 14 charisma and expertise in Deception and Persuasion. Our 4th player is a divination wizard .... with proficiency in lock picking (encroaching on me!)

With reliable talent and expertise, my Rogue is generally a better face than the Warlock even though he has a 22 charisma and proficiency. I am sure at times he feels "overshadowed" about this but the game is still perfectly playable. What we lack to be honest is healing.

Moreover circumstances often dictate checks, so while you may have a great "face" it may not always be that guy making the charisma checks. Things like turn order and story get in the way of that all the time and you have your 8 charisma fighter trying to bluff his way in to the BBEG's compound because he is the one they spotted, or your Drow might be making a check because he is the only one who speaks undercommon.

 

[Maxperson]

Okay. 20th level then.

Sure.

So the claim was that the fighter gets 8 things to do over 8 fights and the wizard gets 16 things to do, which is silly since the 3rd level Battle Master had 15, but okay.

Since this is about resources spent and basic attacks and cantrips are not resources spent, and are roughly equal, those will be eliminated from both classes.

The wizard has 21 total spell slots for the day. He can get back 10 spell levels of 6th or lower. I'll give him 2 5th level spells. So 23 total slots. He needs to use 16 of them in the 8 combats, so with the 2 bonus 5th level spells, and spending his highest slots, he uses up every 4th-9th level slots plus 2 of his 3 3rd level slots. That leaves him with 4 1st, 3 2nd and 1 3rd level spell to dominate the rogue with in exploration(ain't happening).

Now the Diviner is a popular subclass, so I'll use that. Diviner adds 3 uses of Portent.

So 16 spells and 3 uses of portent for 19 things to do in 8 encounters.

Now the 20th level Battle Master. 6 Action Surges per day. 7 maneuvers known. 18 superiority dice(if we put him on Krynn he'd have like 30 dice, but...). He gets 3 uses Indomitable. 3 uses of Second Wind. He also has Relentless. Since he has 4 attacks, this isn't optimal, but I'm showing just how many possible things he can do in 8 encounters, so I'm using a superiority die on every attack.

I will assume 3 out of 4 attacks hit, because hitting is easy at high levels. I'm also going to assume 3 round combats. So all 6 dice are used up in 2 rounds, and he gets 1 extra superiority die in round 3. So combat #1 he uses 7 dice. Combat #2 he uses 7 dice. Combat #3 he uses 7 dice. Now he's out for the day, so he only get 3 dice for encounters #4-8. Total superiority dice used 33.

So 33 superiority dice, 6 action surges, 3 second winds, 3 indomitable for 45 things to do over 8 encounters.

So we have the Battle Master still have more than double the resources to use over 8 encounters than the 20th level Wizard. Now of course the Wizard might have some combat spells chosen for Signature Spells or Spell Mastery, but I see more non-combat stuff chosen there.

 

[leozg]

Not sure who you're talking about. I've played martial characters up to level 20. Occasionally the wizard did cool things, my character kicked butt all day long. Being different, having a different role doesn't make them better.

Not quoting because it was said by some.Your answer, differently, shows your opinion regarding the concept of better, which implies a discussion of power, which in turn is related to the OP.
But I'll disagree, my concept of better in this context is different. My concept is that if class A is able to overcome all challenges class B is able to, and A is able to overcome other challenges class B don't, than A>B. IMO, and for some who answered before, wizards are able to overcome all challenges other classes are able to, sometimes in other's niche, being better (worst case), sometimes by similar abilities. My answer is tied to the my premise that when playing, part of my fun is roleplaying a character who achieves something, not the one who is always overshadowed. Of course I can play a martial, forget about it and be happy, but that's not the discussion proposed by the OP.

 

[Oofta]

Not quoting because it was said by some.Your answer, differently, shows your opinion regarding the concept of better, which implies a discussion of power, which in turn is related to the OP.
But I'll disagree, my concept of better in this context is different. My concept is that if class A is able to overcome all challenges class B is able to, and A is able to overcome other challenges class B don't, than A>B. IMO, and for some who answered before, wizards are able to overcome all challenges other classes are able to, sometimes in other's niche, being better (worst case), sometimes by similar abilities. My answer is tied to the my premise that when playing, part of my fun is roleplaying a character who achieves something, not the one who is always overshadowed. Of course I can play a martial, forget about it and be happy, but that's not the discussion proposed by the OP.

My concept of relative value is simple. Do people have fun playing the class and do they want to play it again. In addition, do they contribute to the success of the entire team.

In my experience the answer is yes. With the purchase of DndBeyond, WOTC will have better insight than anyone on this forum.

 

[ECMO3]

Which makes most them subpar rogues due to a lower dex bonus. Besides, you can recheck picking locks, so unless the party is being chased, the rogue doesn't even have to roll. He's going to succeed eventually. And if the party IS being chased, you want the rogue who has the best bonus to be trying to pick it, not someone with a lower bonus or the wizard who is going to bring yet more creatures down on the group with knock.

Only if they have a lower dexterity, and not all theives tools checks are dexterity, a lot of traps in particular are intelligence.

I don't recall it being illegal to kill monsters. If you're talking about humans, elves and such, yes, killing them could get you arrested or turned into fugitives.

Orcs? Goblins? Kobolds? Drow?

You do understand the difference between mind rape and an attempt to talk someone into something, right? Advantage is not the distinction.

Like I said I have seen charms used in plenty of streaming games and those characters did not get locked up and I have seen them used plenty of times in D&D novels, to include by protagonists, without them getting locked up. I think you are the one playing an outler game.

IF you can't use charm person or friends then why are they even in the game?

IF you get a roll. Friends does not guarantee one. If the outcome of the attempt to intimidate is not in doubt, your spell isn't going to help.

Right and if you don't get a roll then it does not matter if the other player has a great charisma and expertise. If you don't get a roll, you don't get a roll.

The point is Friends is going to generally work as well or better than expertise in the same skill. If it is impossible, it is impossible and it does not matter if you use Friends, or expertise or try to do it with an 8 charisma and disadvantage.

But does not guarantee rolls. If the outcome is not in doubt, there is no ability check. How does the DM determine that, he looks at what the spell does. It makes the target regard the caster as a friendly acquaintance. Therefore, anything a friendly acquaintance absolutely would not do for the caster is not going to get a roll. If it's possible that a friendly acquaintance would do what is asked, say delivering a letter to the innkeeper, you get advantage on that roll.

Right and without the spell you can't do anything at all. Basically there are three possibilities:

1. It is completely impossible, even for a friendly acquaintance, in which case there is no difference between the Wizard doing it and the face doing it. The Face is equally bad at it.

2. It is possible without charming him in which case the wizard gets advantage on the roll and is better than the face would be at it (assuming a decent charisma and proficiency)

3. It is not possible normally, but if the guy was a friendly acquaintance it would be possible, in which case the wizard is better.

There is no case where the wizard is worse at this (assuming a decent charimsa and proficiency)

That's objectively false. Charm let's the victim, and it is a victim, know that it has been charmed. A 20 charisma and expertise is not mind rape, so it will not have the same effect with failure. Charm is objectively worse to use than a 20 charisma and expertise.

And if you lie to him he is going to realize you lied to him. He realizes, he comes to talk to you about it and you charm him again.

Yes, I said that earlier. But only sight. Not the other ways to detect an invisible creature, like hearing

And sight is both the most common way to find a hidden person and breaking sight is the only requirement for even trying to hide.

In a well lit empty room, yes.

In ANY room that is not completely dark (or any room with enemies with darkvision). I'm not sure you understand how hide works, you must be fully obscured to even TRY to hide unless you are a wood elf in natural terrain, a lightfoot halfling hiding behind a person or you have the skukler feat. Those are the only 3 ways to

You go into a dimly lit tavern and the Rogue can't hide in the room - period. He can't even try to hide because he is only partially obscured by the dim light. He has to go behind the bar, turn over a table and get behind it, snuff out all the candles or go into another room to even attempt hiding (and snuffing out the candles won't work if the guy you are hiding from has darkvision)

Darkvision? A creature relying on that has almost no chance of seeing that rogue. That creature has disadvantage

He automatically sees him unless he is fully obscured. If the Rogue tries to hide without being completley obscuring himself he automatically fails. He has to completely break sight to even try to hide.

If the enemy has darkvision and you are in a completely dark room and want to hide in the corner over there - automatic failure!

The wizard can hide anywhere in the room. He can stand right in front of him and hide.

Another example - 2 Drow guarding a long dark hallway - Rogue has no chance at all of sneaking down the hallway past them because he can't be fullly obscured. None, can't impossible for him. Wizard turns invisibile and can try it easily.

If the wizard is relying on feats, other classes, other party members, items, etc., then it is not wizard superiority.

Your argument is the wizard can't be better, that is fundamentally a different argument than saying another chassis better supports this.

Most do, and even healing word > than wizard at being a healer.

I agree on that, a Wizard can not be a good healer, not even with feats.

Without going to feats

Doesn't matter. I could have built a wizard to do it. Your point is you can't make a wizard that can do those things. Yes you can.

If the DM isn't making mind rape illegal, he's making charm more powerful and useful than it is supposed to be. It's a 1st level spell for God's sake. It's supposed to be on par with Magic Missile.

The Forgotten Realms is the most popular D&D setting and mind probing spells are used often in that setting in the novels, to include by the law.

You are the one who is out of touch here.

Great. A low int = lots more saves for monsters and the wizard loses what "domination" he might have had. Low dex or con = squishy wizard that gets hit a lot.

Sure, but if you are not building for combat then getting hit does not matter a lot.

I agree a combat-oriented wizard should have a high dexterity but constitution is overated IME, not just on Wizards but on most players. I have built some pretty combat heavy wizards and I rarely invest a lot in Constitution. If you are really worried about hit points, precasting False Life will give you a lot more hps than you can get out of a 2-point bump in constitution, while allowing you to invest more in dexterity, wisdom or charisma.

People will scream "concentration", but building so as not to take damage is more effective than improving your concentration save. When you fail concentration it is usually not the end of the world you can just recast the spell. If it is going to be the end of the world (that dragon is banished but his allies are attacking) then other characters are probably buffing you with things like sanctuary and you are probably taking the dodge action or taking cover to avoid damage at all costs.

That you have to put in unobscured is telling. But then I conceded that a rogue in a brightly lit empty room is worse than an invisible wizard. Corner cases don't counter what I am saying.

Being dimly lit only makes you partially obsccured. It has to be completely dark to be fully obscured and only then if the enemy does not have darkvision.

You have this backwards - it is a corner cases where the Rogue can hide without getting behind something - either a completely black room with enemies that do not have darkvision or wood elf, halfling or skulker feat affording the limited options that expand that.