D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Maxperson]

Once again, it seems like your criterion for “wizard is overpowered” is literally “do their job and replace three other party members at the same time”.

This is not a reasonable metric to determine if a class is overpowered.

That was literally the claim of at least one person in this thread. That they can do 3-4 roles really well. And the way people always counter any argument my side put forth with the wizard having the exact spells handy, with slots handy, to overcome the utility situation AND combat situation AND beat the rogue AND beat the fighter AND always have the right spell for the situation prepared...

If that's the way they respond, then they must think that the wizard can do all of that at once, or they wouldn't be claiming wizard superiority because they can do all of those things. They would be admitting that the wizard really can't do all of those things and that if the wizard wants to be good in combat, he's not matching the rogue or doing much utility. They would be saying that a wizard focused on utility isn't matching the rogue or fighter, and the wizard trying to match the rogue is a failure(see my above post to Frogreaver) and should be focusing on combat and utility.

 

[Stalker0]

With expertise, a high dex and reliable talent, the rogue is going to be far, far better at stealth.

High level arguments aren't really that useful for these discussions. For example, reliable talent is an 11th level rogue ability. Very few campaigns actually go to 11th level, and if they do its only for a short time. 11th level rogues are unicorns. Likewise, we shouldn't be looking at wizards with 6th level spells....5th level and below is where we should spend the bulk of our time judging them for this debate.

 

[FrogReaver]

Shield isn't that useful unless you have mage armor on and have a dex bonus. Mage armor is 8 hours, so you're casting it 3x day to keep it on constantly. Since I have been forced by bad design to go to one long rest per 6-8 encounters which is usually 3-14 days in game time, the wizard doesn't have enough slots to maintain mage armor 24/7, let alone keep it up and use shield more than once in a while.

Two things. Your alternate rest system does nerf casters some in that their long duration spells don't last for as much of the adventuring period between rests. Mage Armor doesn't need kept up constantly, just in the part of the adventuring day where you are most likely to have encounters.

So let's assume a 6-8 encounter day in a 24 hour period. To have mage armor up the entire time is 3 of the 4 1st level spells a wizard has, which still leaves only 1 casting of shield which will 99.9% of the time be used in combat, not on a trap. Asborb elements? Do you want to give rid of AC from mage armor or shield? Because you are out of 1st level spells already. Or you can upcast it and be using up higher level slots that could be used on invisibility or something else to cast absorb elements. Boy this wizard is chewing through his spells and he hasn't even attacked yet!

Maybe instead of making assumptions you should ask how those that believe the wizard is OP would play such a wizard.

Counterspell and dispel magic are highly situational and useful in combat only.

Do traps not use magic/spells?

They don't do anything at all for a trap. Traps generate effects, but don't cast spells that can be countered and dispel magic only works on spells that are on objects(such as a light spell on a stone), not traps that generate effects.

I'm not sure where you get dispel magic cannot dispel traps from?

You are technically right on counterpsell though. 5e does require it to be a creature casting a spell within 60ft. We had always ran that it could counter trap spells but that would be a houserule (though possibly a fairly common one).

Polymorph isn't going to do much. It might let you turn into something to fly out of a pit trap, if it doesn't cover back up. If you have it on in advance, the trap is going to be a concentration roll, which has a good chance of causing the loss of the spell. It's not like you can be a t-rex or anything that size and be walking down most dungeon hallways.

Polymorph gives you more hp to take trap hits than the rogue ever dreamed of having.

How do retries up to 22 benefit the wizard more than retries up to 30 benefit a rogue?

Because if you can retry till you succeed (up to your max roll) then for anything lower than that it doesn't matter if you get unlimited retries.

A few things. First, the first number is cantrips which will be mostly useless and don't actually go down. Actually, thinking about it I think you typoed the first number and are thinking level 9, which makes sense for the 5 levels of recovery Okay, going with level 9 the wizard is still using up 3 1st level spells just to keep mage armor up so that he has a halfway decent AC. He's still going to get hit a LOT, though, so he will need those other 6 1st level spells for shield and absorb elements in combat.

Yea it should have said level 9. But again you are making unfavorable assumptions for how I would play a wizard and that likely drives the reason you don't view them as OP.

That leaves 0, 3, 3, 2, 1 to cover combat attacks for 6-8 encounters, which means that if he wants to even try to match the rogue, he's throwing primarily cantrips all day long with maybe 1 or 2 attack spells of higher level. So the rogue can sneak and hide all 24 hours that day. The wizard on the other hand has 3 invisibility spells to cover 3 hours. Less if he gets into combat and gets hit, and he loses out on mirror image by doing so, which is very helpful in keep squishy wizards alive in battle. And knock? It opens one door at the risk of a TPK and uses up a precious invisibility or mirror image slot.

Now we are at 0, 0, 3, 2, 1 and other than some invisibilities to be 1/8 as good as the rogue(3 hours vs. 24), the wizard hasn't done much to match the rogue. Third level gets chewed through using counterspell on enemies usually and maybe a fireball, which means that there aren't a lot of, or even any spells left for things like fly to get up to the places the rogue is climbing to or gaseous form to get past a door.

Now we are at 0, 0, 0, 2, 1 and the wizard has MAYBE cast one spell higher than a cantrip in the 6-8 encounters, and failed miserably so far to match the rogue. He's been sneaky for 1/8 of the time available to the rogue OR for 1/12 of the time and knocked open 1 door. And let's be honest with ourselves here, the last 3 slots are going to be used on offensive combat spells, because the wizard wants to do something other than just spam firebolt.

See above.

 

[Maxperson]

Two things. Your alternate rest system does nerf casters some in that their long duration spells don't last for as much of the adventuring period between rests. Mage Armor doesn't need kept up constantly, just in the part of the adventuring day where you are most likely to have encounters.

I know. I've created a work around for that and give casters back 2 spells a night. That seems to be too many, though and next campaign I will probably reduce it to 1. And there isn't a part of the adventuring day that is most likely to have encounters. You adventure for 16 hours and when resting monsters can and often do wander in when you are in a hostile area, which any area with 6-8 encounters in a 24 hours period is.

Maybe instead of making assumptions you should ask how those that believe the wizard is OP would play such a wizard.

No. 6-8 encounters in a 24 hour period is the expected number of encounters, so that's what I will assume. If they are playing less, then it's their fault the wizard is OP. Now if you're talking about the mage armor, you mentioned survivability and not having that AC makes the wizard squishier than a sponge. Especially if the wizard loses initiative or is surprised

Do traps not use magic/spells?

They do not cast them, no. Counterspell cannot stop any spell that was not cast. Nor can the wizard stop any spell he cannot see being cast and traps do not have any V, S or M to alert the wizard in any case.

I'm not sure where you get dispel magic cannot dispel traps from?

The rules. Dispel Magic can dispel a spell ON an person, object or magical effect, not a magical object like a trap. So you could dispel the light spell cast on a coin, but could not dispel a wand of fireballs. You could dispel the polymorph you got hit with when the trap triggered, if you can cast spells in the new form, but not prior to that.

You are technically right on counterpsell though. 5e does require it to be a creature casting a spell within 60ft. We had always ran that it could counter trap spells but that would be a houserule (though possibly a fairly common one).

Creature isn't really the relevant part. Traps do not use V, S or M, so by the time you know something is happening it's too late. The fireball or whatever is already heading towards you. You have to be able to see the spell being cast

Polymorph gives you more hp to take trap hits than the rogue ever dreamed of having.

First, there's a good chance it's for one trap, then polymorph leaves if you fail the concentration effect. Second, the rogue has evasion, so that fireball above is doing half to no damage at all to the rogue, and half to full damage to the wizard. Probably full since wizards don't get dex save proficiency and have lowish dex, unlike rogues who have high dex and proficiency. Those same saves avoid most mechanical traps as well. The wizard better have double or more of the rogue's hit points if he wants to make that claim. The rogue will be taking 0 damage a lot while the wizard is taking full, running the wizard down to 0 long before the rogue goes to 0. Plus, there's still the first problem of maintaining concentration.

Just out of curiosity, what form is the wizard taking for this exploration trip?

Because if you can retry till you succeed (up to your max roll) then for anything lower than that it doesn't matter if you get unlimited retries.

And for anything more the rogue is better. So at best the wizard is equal(if all rolls are 22 or less) and more likely the rogue is better.

Yea it should have said level 9. But again you are making unfavorable assumptions for how I would play a wizard and that likely drives the reason you don't view them as OP.

So what spells do you use to be better than the rogue and at the same time use both defensive magic and offensive magic higher than a cantrip in 6-8 combats?

 

[Maxperson]

AND provides a nice extra target/HP sink when the baddie gets sick of it.

Basically a much lower resource cost mirror image, guaranteed to work at least once.

Mirror Image is a free level 2 slot. Find Familiar is 10g a pop, plus herbs that you can run out of. The slot is the lower cost.

 

[Garthanos]

That

Agreed. I don't believe wizards can meaningfully perform the face role. They have a couple of low level spells (charm person, suggestion) to help here but both have large drawbacks in social situations.

The spells seem fall backs for when the other doesn't work .... similar to I try to pick the lock?... doesn't work, so I knock.

 

[Maxperson]

That

The spells seem fall backs for when the other doesn't work .... similar to I try to pick the lock?... doesn't work, so I knock.

And then you roll initiative when every monster in the area converges on the massive sound of the knock spell.

 

[Garthanos]

And then you roll initiative when every monster in the area converges on the massive sound of the knock spell.

But you are through the door (and if not then those monsters where damn close in the first place)... its a choice that the non-caster rogue does not have. *its versatility

 

[Mort]

Mirror Image is a free level 2 slot. Find Familiar is 10g a pop, plus herbs that you can run out of. The slot is the lower cost.

in 1st or 2nd tier play 2nd level slots are precious - ESPECIALLY if long rests are a week! 10gp is nothing compared to the time expenditure.

From a combat perspective, mirror image is an action AND a 2nd level slot, the familiar is no slot and no extra action. That's a huge benefit.

Unless the campaign is extraordinarily tight on gold, 10gp is much less of a resource cost than the 2nd level slot (especially if long rests are a week).

 

[Oofta]

How often is that level of Stealth going to be necessary? Our Rogue went all in on Stealth. At level 11, she had the +13. Of course, most of the enemies had passive Perception between 12 and 14.

The wizard’s +7 with advantage is going to succeed just fine.

Where do you see disadvantage/advantage? I can't find anything that says creatures have disadvantage on anything other than attack rolls. Maybe I'm just blind, but I don't see it.

They do have to rely on something other than sight, many creatures do.